Luke Skywanker
[film] [lotr] Is there an argument to be made about releasing two versions of a film being either confusing or lazy from a creative standpoint?

(I'm firming up my arguments for the roast. I want to talk about furthering class issues and leaning into a racist aesthetic that wasn't necessary to the story, but I thought this might be a potential avenue.)
Luke Skywanker
FOR INSTANCE: is there anything in the extended versions that makes it hard to understand the later movies if you haven't seen them?
Luke Skywanker
it's been a really long time
bluecanary
I don't tttthink so but
bluecanary
I don't know off the top of my head which thing belongs to which version
Luke Skywanker
yeah me too
Luke Skywanker
I wasn't going to watch again but it has been like fifteen years
bluecanary
def an argument about uhm. they lose the augustinian morality of the books by wanting to put in Cool battle scenes
bluecanary
the idea is supposed to be that war is ugly and evil defeats itself because it can't help being evil but the movie gets overexcited with making sure war looks super cool and has a point
Luke Skywanker
ooh that's good
Luke Skywanker
thank you
Luke Skywanker
I actually don't think tolkien was super racist BUT I do think the film leans into that interpretation with its casting and visual choices
bluecanary
theres a whole thing with men from shady eastern countries that are inherently evil
bluecanary
which I think was meant to represent like.... eastern europe not necessarily the middle east but it's still not good
spiteologist
no it's definitely the middle east/north africa
spiteologist
like, the colonial narrative associated with britain and the middle east is Very There in the books and films both
spiteologist
both in the "inherently shady, clever but evil/gullible" coding and, in the books, with the awareness of past (Gondorian) invasion/displacement of the Easterlings and Haradrim
spiteologist
very typical of british colonialism among the left-to-centre of british high society at the time
Luke Skywanker
Right, but I think the coding gets worse in the films if anything, because you had a choice here
Luke Skywanker
(plus JRRT also was trying to make a point about some of these people being forced etc though it's not great I just meant his letters reveal more nuance at times)
Luke Skywanker
you could have cast the hobbits as any race
Luke Skywanker
likewise EVERYONE ELSE
spiteologist
oh, for sure
spiteologist
(this is WHY i'm so interested in the coding, bc to me LotR reads as "centrist-to-progressive for the time", rather than intended as racist. It comes across more the way that Orwell describes the Indians he knew - disrespectful but Trying)
Luke Skywanker
what I think I mean it's that Tolkien's racism is generally of the period and possibly unconscious. Not justified, but I get it. movie doesn't have an excuse.
Luke Skywanker
yes!
spiteologist
also I maintain that Númenoreans (including Aragorn and Faramir at the very least) should be Not White
Luke Skywanker
Oh?
spiteologist
this is getting into the Deep Lore but a. they're described as dark haired and grey eyed, and more importantly b. Númenor itself was significantly south of Gondor and the other southern races are largely described as swarthy/dark/etc https://images.plurk.com/4IwECsp9qZwaE3SbgksYBV.png
spiteologist
and it's made clear that Númenorean blood shows very clearly in bloodlines, and yeah, you can take that as "is seven foot tall and looks super kingly" but there's no reason not to ALSO take that as "doesn't look white"
spiteologist
so it's not that númenoreans are canonically other than white, it's just that to me it makes perfect sense that they might not be, and it would be cool if they weren't
Luke Skywanker
huh! I always think of it as atlantis but that's dumb because obviously I don't know where that is
Luke Skywanker
but there's literally no reason that frodo had to be white. or Aragorn. or anyone except MAYBE legolas
spiteologist
ALSO PLEASE ROAST THE FILMS AND PETER JACKSON FOR THEIR TREATMENT OF GIMLI KTHNX
Luke Skywanker
maybe my whole argument is "Aragorn's too hot"
Luke Skywanker
yes that's on my list
Luke Skywanker
dwarves are for short jokes!
spiteologist
as a dwarf fan i will fight peter jackson any time anywhere about his clear side-taking on the elves v. dwarves feud
Luke Skywanker
hey man, there's room for everyone
Luke Skywanker
but you're right he was a dick
Luke Skywanker
ironic given his own physicality/aesthetic
spiteologist
I love elves but also he ruins them by leaving out all the petty bullshit and interesting cultural issues so. shrug.
spiteologist
let! legolas! be! shitty!
ryannN?!
how can it be racist if black people don't exist??? CHECKMATE liberals
ryannN?!
by which I mean: a few casting changes could have gone a long way
Luke Skywanker
HAHAHA
Luke Skywanker
and I'm sure you all know this, but this is A ROAST I love these movies and I've been a Tolkien fan since I was like ten
ryannN?!
I know, hard same
ryannN?!
it was at a time in my life where it didn't occur to me that it was racist, but did feel pretty sexist
ryannN?!
pretty normal unenlightened middle class white girl stuff
Luke Skywanker
oh for sure
Luke Skywanker
yup!
ryannN?!
but I loved it anyway
Luke Skywanker
I was gandalf for Halloween
ryannN?!
nothing I saw back then wasn't sexist, and at least it was a killer narrative
ryannN?!
and anyway I could project on frodo and legolas
bluecanary
i think the movies at least try harder than the books to give women something to do besides pine
bluecanary
arwen's role was super expanded
bluecanary
but i still think its like
bluecanary
4 hours and you didnt pass bechdel
Luke Skywanker
It's expanded but MOSTLY in the context of her relationship with Aragorn--except for the river
bluecanary
true
bluecanary
she gets some good conversations with elrond but
bluecanary
they're almost all ABOUT her choice to stay with aragorn
spiteologist
also i disagree because i think they did éowyn kind of dirty
spiteologist
in terms of... in the films she comes across much more as driven by her crush on aragorn, imo, compared to what we see in the books of her ambition and honour and stuff. although i agree with the choice not to include the faramir ship at the end (even though I love them)
bluecanary
agree
bluecanary
i think eowyn got shafted specifically by time constraints
bluecanary
but thats a poor excuse when the film is F O U R H O U R S
bluecanary
and the battle of helm's deep takes AN ENTIRE MOVIE
spiteologist
YEAH
spiteologist
i mean i'm biased because book!éowyn is my first crush and forever love but still
spiteologist
(also the thing where she can't cook was very ?????????????)
spiteologist
(LET! ÉOWYN! BE! FEMININE! TOO!)
spiteologist
(she runs a court you nuggets)
Luke Skywanker
no you are either a boy girl or a girl girl
spiteologist
and like. they really did not show her devotion to either her uncle or her people (or, really, her self-sacrifice in staying in Edoras) and I am eternally Big Mad
spiteologist
they didn't even get in that good dernhelm/merry bonding
Luke Skywanker
I don't think we'll get that far, sadly.
Luke Skywanker
I've got you know, my portion of a 45 minute debate and I think we'll be concentrating on FOTR
Luke Skywanker
uh did I miss a part where Merry and pippin discuss going with them?
Luke Skywanker
(honestly I can't remember what's in this movie anymore)
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