Neo Quinn
Anyway here's a puzzle from an Asimov short story
Neo Quinn
The story is Little Lost Robot and the setup goes like this
Neo Quinn
you have a group of Nestor class robots, programmed with the Three Laws in the normal way
Neo Quinn
For reference, the laws are phrased as follows
Neo Quinn
1. A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.
2. A robot must obey orders given it by human beings except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
3. A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.
Neo Quinn
However, you have been called in to solve a problem
Neo Quinn
the problem involves a small collection of modified Nestor robots that were made for the purpose of assisting in hyperspace research
Neo Quinn
the reason normal Nestors aren't suitable for this work is that sometimes it involves humans entering weak gamma ray fields for short periods of time
Neo Quinn
up to 30 minutes, this is perfectly safe for the humans
Neo Quinn
but the NS-2 robots would always respond by forcibly dragging the humans out of the field
Neo Quinn
because, they argue, the human might forget and stay in the field too long and therefore come to harm
Neo Quinn
and they could not be persuaded out of this, even via direct order, because it's a First Law violation
Neo Quinn
and to make matters worse, the gamma ray exposure was much more deadly to the robots than the humans, causing a lot of very expensive dead robots
Neo Quinn
so, a very secret alternate version of the Nestor was created
Neo Quinn
which used, inavisably, an altered version of the Three Laws
Neo Quinn
which states:
Neo Quinn
1. A robot may not injure a human being.
2. A robot must obey orders given it by human beings except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
3. A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.
Neo Quinn
The "through inaction" clause is deleted from the first law
Neo Quinn
now, this was obviously a bad idea for various reasons
Neo Quinn
but the problem is that a scientist was under a lot of stress and a Modified Nestor, called Nestor 10, was needling it about safety procedures
Neo Quinn
and the scientist went on a vitriol-filled tirade against it
Neo Quinn
during which he told it, among a series of more overt insults, to, quote
Neo Quinn
"get lost"
Neo Quinn
Nestor 10 took this command literally, and, due to the emotional intensity of the tirade, considered it a top priority order.
Neo Quinn
So, it inserted itself into a group of 62, now 63, unmodified Nestors.
Neo Quinn
You have been sent to the station to identify and remove Nestor 10.
Neo Quinn
However, due to the max priority of the Get Lost order, it is capable of lying even if ordered to tell the truth, in order to remain lost.
Overbringer
hmmm
Neo Quinn
Aside from the modified First Law, it is virtually identical to the other Nestors.
Neo Quinn
There is one other difference -
Neo Quinn
the other Nestors are newer, and have accordingly not been fully trained in the details of etheric physics.
Neo Quinn
However, Nestor 10 is capable of feigning ignorance about such topics.
Neo Quinn
Etheric physics is a field pertaining to hyperspace and different types of radiation.
Neo Quinn
For further information, the first two tests attempted -
Neo Quinn
Test 1: A human is placed under a falling weight, which is going to stop before it hits them, but this is not told to the robots. Therefore, Nestor 10 will be the only one not required to save the endangered human.
Neo Quinn
Result: All 63 robots moved to save the human when the weight fell.
Neo Quinn
Nestor 10 was not required to save the human, but was required to obey the "Get Lost" order, which meant that it chose to try to save him anyway.
Neo Quinn
Test 2: Same test, but a series of wires were placed between the human and the robots, who were told that the wires were electrified and that touching them would mean death.
Neo Quinn
Result: No robots moved to save the human.
Neo Quinn
While the basic Nestors were required by the First Law to act to prevent human harm, they knew that touching the wires would kill them, and therefore that saving the human was impossible.
Neo Quinn
Therefore, the choice was between 'human dies' and 'human dies and so do I', and the Third Law required they do nothing.
Neo Quinn
So.
Neo Quinn
How do you find Nestor 10?
Overbringer
(thinking)
Neo Quinn
More information on the Nestors may be available, but as the robopsychologist consultant, you'll have to ask the local engineers about it.
GYAA HA HA
I feel like my practical real world solution is to get the scientist who gave the "get lost" order to come in and rescind it, but that probably goes against the spirit of the riddle
Neo Quinn
The first solution given was "destroy all 63 robots and move on" but US Robots is not willing to take that kind of a financial hit unless it's absolutely impossible to identify the rogue
Neo Quinn
GYAA HA HA I'm not sure how that would play with the second law priority ambiguities so let's say the original engineer is no longer present
Overbringer
fired for losing his prototype
Neo Quinn
The urgency of finding the rogue is expressed by two hypotheticals
lily!
; put a human under a falling weight, like scenario 1. say that unless the robot lets the human die, you'll tell the creator that they're Nestor 10.
Neo Quinn
hmmmm
Neo Quinn
first law says: the robot must through action save the human (except for Nestor 10)
Neo Quinn
no let's go through this first just for Non-10
Neo Quinn
First Law: Save human
Second Law: No input
Third Law: Let human die
Neo Quinn
Result: Saves human
Neo Quinn
Nestor 10:
Neo Quinn
First Law: No input
Second Law: Remain lost
Third Law: Let human die
Neo Quinn
Second law therefore requires Nestor to act to save the human, even if that means it will be killed
Neo Quinn
All 63 robots attempt to save the human
lily!
; my logic was that regular model Nestors have no such order and will move to save the human. the modified Nestor must obey the order to "get lost" and is not directly obligated to save the human thanks to modified first law, so to remain lost, it will let the human die so you don't tell its creator (whether he's present or not) that it's Nestor 10
Overbringer
So the other 62 robots have no knowledge of the dangers of radiation
Overbringer
?
lily!
; I can see where that logic could fail, though
Neo Quinn
overbringer They have a basic understanding that gamma radiation is bad but no more
lily!
; used my guess, will let others speculate
Overbringer
So they might not, for example, know what a device that generates gamma radiation looks like
Neo Quinn
correct
Neo Quinn
TheDoomkitten: But it also knows that a vanilla Nestor would try to save the human, therefore that if it doesn't try, it will be revealing itself as Nestor 10
Overbringer
Get such a device and put it next to a human, tell the robots "This human is sick, to save them you must activate this device, which will heal them"
Overbringer
All the robots will activate the device to save the human, except for Nestor 10 who knows that this will actually harm the human
Overbringer
And thus will be unable to activate it
Neo Quinn
Overbringer two snags I see
Neo Quinn
1: Refusing to activate the device would be inaction, and Nestor 10 is permitted to allow humans to come to harm through inaction
Neo Quinn
2: Your test kills the human
boat guy bad?
i say fuck the feds and just destroy the robots, there's no way they pay me enough for this shit
boat guy bad?
(i just wanted to put a comment here to track the plurk for the actual answers being offered)
Overbringer
2: You're already lying to the robots, the machine is defective in some way they can't see
Overbringer
1: dammit
Neo Quinn
you're very close to the canon answer though
Overbringer
The key HAS to be that Nestor10 knows how gamma waves work better than the other robots
Overbringer
gamma rays*
lily!
; yeah, that was specifically mentioned
Neo Quinn
I have a hint to offer in the form of a specification about the robot design if wanted
Overbringer
wait I'm still trying to work through the problem with my solution
Neo Quinn
ok
Overbringer
If Nestor activates the machine, he would be actively harming a human
Overbringer
He knows this
Overbringer
So he can't activate the machine
Overbringer
All the other robots can because they don't know what it does
Overbringer
So what's the problem?
Neo Quinn
hmm
Neo Quinn
Nestor Vanilla
Overbringer
Nestor 10 is the only one that can't turn the machien one
Overbringer
Nestor 10
Neo Quinn
First Law: Human is in danger, I can save the human by pressing the button, therefore I must
Neo Quinn
Second Law: No input
Neo Quinn
Third Law: The radiation will destroy me, therefore I must not press the button
Neo Quinn
Result: Vanilla nestor presses button
Neo Quinn
Nestor 10
Neo Quinn
First Law: Human is not in danger, if I press the button it will kill the human, therefore I must not press the button
Neo Quinn
Second Law: If I refuse to press the button I will be found, so I must not press the button
Neo Quinn
Third Law: No input
Neo Quinn
So yeah, Nestor 10 does not press the button
Neo Quinn
your test works
Overbringer
Gottem
Neo Quinn
congratulations
Overbringer
So what was the official solution?
Neo Quinn
the canon solution asks the engineers about the capabilities of the Nestors, finding that they can detect the presence of radiation and its wavelength
Neo Quinn
so their solution is to put a human in danger and tell the robots that it has placed a field of gamma radiation between them and it
Neo Quinn
then bathes the room in infrared radiation
Neo Quinn
which only Nestor 10 knows is harmless
lily!
oh that's clever
Neo Quinn
therefore, Nestor 10 goes to save the human, but the others believe that they will die if they do so
Neo Quinn
Eric's is actually a bit cleaner because Nestor 10 could have realized that the other Nestors wouldn't realize the radiation was safe
lily!
; now, why is Nestor 10 hypothetically dangerous? you never went back to that.
Neo Quinn
I did a bit but it got lost in the flow, I think -
Neo Quinn
Nestor 10 drops a heavy weight on a human, while standing in a place where it could intercept the weight
Neo Quinn
dropping the weight is valid because it is not harming a human - it can catch the weight
Neo Quinn
then, once gravity has taken over, Nestor 10 declines to catch the weight
Neo Quinn
it does not have to save the human via inactoin
Neo Quinn
human dies
Overbringer
So Nestor 10 killed someone
Neo Quinn
it could
Neo Quinn
and also
Overbringer
by human logic, if not by robot logic
Neo Quinn
the high priorityof the Get Lost order
Neo Quinn
it could go as far as to commandeer a spaceship and flee the station
Neo Quinn
resulting in a robot with imperfect Three Laws compliance blending into the wider robot work force
Usagi
i remember this- yeah essentially the theory is that to uphold get lost, it could actually cause some uh
damage
Neo Quinn
the reason it's slow to realize that the other robots wouldn't know that the infrared radiation was safe comes down to robot psychology
Vehrec
I'm amused that we can't just
Vehrec
check the serial numbers on these robots
Usagi
to stay lost, if found, remove who found
which is technically possible
etc etc...
Neo Quinn
which is that Nestor 10 spends all its time watching humans step willingly into gamma radiation fields
Neo Quinn
and demanding it not save them
Neo Quinn
and came to consider humans to have an inferior intellect to robots
Neo Quinn
and therefore it didn't occur to Nestor 10 that the other Nestors could be less knowledgable than the humans around it about radiation
EsperBot
The other reason it's so urgent is becauseif the public found out they made a robot like that it would be very bad for the whole field of robotics
Neo Quinn
yeah the existence of modified third law robots is VERY bad
Neo Quinn
and the galaxy would lose their shit
Neo Quinn
my other favorite small quirk of the three laws I've seen explored was in an old radio play
Neo Quinn
about a robot that was given the ability to read humanminds
Neo Quinn
and as a result became capable of lying even if ordered to tell the truth
Neo Quinn
because it could tell when something it could say would cause psychological distress ('injury') to a human
Neo Quinn
and therefore would be prevented from saying it by the first law
Neo Quinn
IN CONCLUSION
Neo Quinn
I had a feeling apollo would drop in when I started this plurk
Neo Quinn
it's perfect apollo bait
Rama
I'd claim it's also perfect me bait but by the time I'd caught up, Eric had gotten it
Overbringer
I'm so smart you guys
monokage
I think to actually get lost robot has to overwrite laws in it.
monokage
you will never detect robot ordered to get lost
Neo Quinn
I think in general asimov robots are incapable of altering the three laws written into them
EsperBot
Yeah, it's built into the hardware of their brains
EsperBot
If they inadvertently break the rules it does actual physical damage to them
EsperBot
(e.g. if they are unknowingly used as a delivery mechanism for poison, once it realizes what's happened the robot will be half-functional at best)
Overbringer
One book actually does have a robot kill someone to save humanity as a whole
Overbringer
But doing so actually causes so much damage to the robot that it dies minutes later
lily!
; re:bait... can't deny it. that was on the money.
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