pixie lovemail
[Spoilers][Discourse] dead-eyed stares out the window and sighs
BERSERKER
oh no umineko discourse is always painful what's the hap
pixie lovemail
somebody whose liveblog I was following is arguing that Sayo "reads as more of a cis person thought experiment than anything else" and I want to scream
Lightning Bolt
kill them
pixie lovemail
like
CERTAINTY
w hat ?????????
pixie lovemail
they ultimately do think that Sayo is trans but are also like "well CLEARLY this goes against the intended meaning of the text" and they argue that because their story is more fantastical than the depressing things that happen to real life intersex infants that
𝗛𝗮𝗽𝗽𝘆𝗼𝗻𝗡𝗲𝘄𝗬𝗲𝗮𝗿!
??????????????????????????????????
pixie lovemail
"you couldn't write more problematic unhinged bait if you tried"
It's Nick
?
Wolfgirl Winter
i mean... yeah they were written by a cis person but
BERSERKER
basically the worst faith read of an actual social worker
Wolfgirl Winter
well sometimes it shows, sure, but it says a lot that she speaks to so many trans people
pixie lovemail
like. idk. even beyond how this demonstrates an alarming lack of faith in the text and ryukishi I'm reminded of one of Nanjo's lines in confession where he goes
pixie lovemail
"Well, even if you can't have any children, you can still lead a happy life!"
BERSERKER
....nanjo was absolutely not meant to be sympathetic there, I think is the thing this person would ignore
pixie lovemail
which really reads to me that it's deliberately calling to mind and drawing parallels to the fucked up surgeries that doctors performed on intersex infants even if the situation wasn't one to one
𝗛𝗮𝗽𝗽𝘆𝗼𝗻𝗡𝗲𝘄𝗬𝗲𝗮𝗿!
there;s a very specific case of an intersex person who was raised in a very similar way to sayo who was almost definitely the inspiration for her story
𝗛𝗮𝗽𝗽𝘆𝗼𝗻𝗡𝗲𝘄𝗬𝗲𝗮𝗿!
bc their case is v well known as a case study for social workers
pixie lovemail
idk this is reminding me of this weird trend that I've noticed of people tending to think that unless it's very blatant and overt japanese media having Gender in it is always unintentional
Wolfgirl Winter
yeah, i remember that, i think it just varies because she ultimately comes down as identifying as more feminine but also her gender is an open wound
BERSERKER
it doesn't help that "trans" brings with it a certain cis interpretation, but there isn't any way to point that out without undermining the actual transness of the gender
It's Nick
Oh! I had no idea there was a case study like that
Wolfgirl Winter
like its not a 1-to-1 parallel to the trans experience most people have irl, and you know, it's the convoluted history of mystery story character, and in many ways it has just as many parallels to intersex stories but
Dragons Dragons
and if it is blatant and overt, it's either a "mistranslation" (complete with the speaker suddenly pretending to know way more japanese than they do) or "corrupting western sjw influence"
Wolfgirl Winter
reading Confession there's so many bits that were obviously ryukishi doing his homework on the inner life of trans and intersex people
pixie lovemail
like even if it's written by a cis author, sympathetic cis people can still try and engage with trans characters and themes
𝗛𝗮𝗽𝗽𝘆𝗼𝗻𝗡𝗲𝘄𝗬𝗲𝗮𝗿!
i want to say it was david reimer's case but i could be misremembering
𝗛𝗮𝗽𝗽𝘆𝗼𝗻𝗡𝗲𝘄𝗬𝗲𝗮𝗿!
cw for abuse and dysphoria and suicide for that case if you're going to look it up btw
BERSERKER
like if we get ultimately loveless with explaining it, Sayo is a gender-questioning intersex with severe physical damage and trauma and either plurality or a similar play with alter-selves to present as gender conforming in various ways

that's not "trans" in that there is no gender being transitioned to but

no, it's trans as fuck?
BERSERKER
if that makes sense?
pixie lovemail
exactly, yeah
𝗛𝗮𝗽𝗽𝘆𝗼𝗻𝗡𝗲𝘄𝗬𝗲𝗮𝗿!
also like
𝗛𝗮𝗽𝗽𝘆𝗼𝗻𝗡𝗲𝘄𝗬𝗲𝗮𝗿!
ciconia, the work that follows on from umineko
𝗛𝗮𝗽𝗽𝘆𝗼𝗻𝗡𝗲𝘄𝗬𝗲𝗮𝗿!
is overtly ABOUT gender and transness
Wolfgirl Winter
oh, also i was gonna say, queer rep doesn't have to be squeaky clean even if it's from people outside of those categories, it's fine
pixie lovemail
and plurality
pixie lovemail
EXACTLY
BERSERKER
(honestly the one time I feel like R07 shows his cis ass and doesn't, like, go back to revise with knowledge he gained after?)
Wolfgirl Winter
characters are allowed to be messy, that's not bigotry
BERSERKER
(is that george ushiromiya still has rights </shot>)
pixie lovemail
(LMAOOOOOO)
Lightning Bolt
no you're right and you should say it
Wolfgirl Winter
i get just as furious about fans that just think maria is sort of annoying and bratty without picking up that she's obviously autistic
BERSERKER
...also, based on what oersted said
BERSERKER
works are allowed to be problematic without being bad or endorsing those problematic factors
Lightning Bolt
i'm gonna kill everyone who hates on maria too
BERSERKER
like, shit. Umineko is problematic as fuck and there is some VERY REAL, VERY BLATANT, VERY DELIBERATE trauma triggers in there because it's about dealing with trauma
BERSERKER
(people who see Maria that way are sadly, unfortunately, super common irl too, and that's how they see all spectrum-coded actions and/or individuals)
Wolfgirl Winter
yeah like, higurashi isn't perfectly woke, but i do also think rena and satoko in particular are very well written neurodivergent characters
pixie lovemail
I'd rather have someone make real genuine effort to portray messy ND and queer experiences and fuck up here or there than for everything to be sanitized and fit the most common definition and thus Perfect Representation
Wolfgirl Winter
it's not like we portray ourselves perfectly all the time in art... and also we're a hundred times more likely to get "cancelled" for the slightest perceived bit of problematicness
Subarashii
yeah, I have some of my issues with umineko (because no work is perfect) but sayo was handled with obvious love and care from ryu, and is pretty clearly based off of a case of an intersex person. Was it perfect? no, this was written in the early 2010's and no work is perfect. does it show empathy and love towards people that suffer through this? yeah
Wolfgirl Winter
also yeah i'm pretty sure it was the david reimer case that inspired this. maybe herculine barbin too.
Okapi
Okapi
I feel like people like this should read higanbana, Rose Guns Days and cicciona because Ryukishi KNOWS HIS SHIT
Okapi
Dude writes about some complex issues and does it really well. Too well at times given that some people find higanbana and cicciona hit too hard, I'm derp as hell and had to stop higanbana and come back because the suicide idealisation hurt
Okapi
It's not 'cis dude accidentally writing something people imprint headcanons on' like a lot of works. It was fully intentional
Okapi
.. That's kind of a word salad sorry
pixie lovemail
no it makes sense
Okapi
Cicciona goes strong with gender stuff, highly recommend if you can handle the waiting. Umineko Ryukishi was subtle and implying, cicciona Ryukishi is waving a neon sign with it in text
Okapi
It also has dumb himbo cis boy trying to date someone whose not cis and it's really cute he try
𝕁υѕт мєℓσ∂ιє
I've always hated the "You're not XYZ, therefore you can never write about XYZ, let alone do it well" mentality.
𝕁υѕт мєℓσ∂ιє
A good author who does their research can write about things they haven't personally experienced. That's called being talented.
BERSERKER
rose guns days was honestly the most awkward of R07's stuff and that's because, like. Nationality and the sense of alternate histories hinging on WW2 having different results is always... very, very awkward, because it leads into very specific conversational quagmires about politics
ғᴏxʏᴍᴏʀᴏɴ
god i saw a person the other day who was like
ғᴏxʏᴍᴏʀᴏɴ
"oh maria is a weird creepy psychic child"
ғᴏxʏᴍᴏʀᴏɴ
and like.... i know, this is episode 1, this is what you're supposed to think
ғᴏxʏᴍᴏʀᴏɴ
but also i am very tired of people thinking that autism just means magic and psychic shit, and not that this child is having a meltdown because no one is understanding what she's trying to convey
BERSERKER
a huge part of ep 4's maria segments were very much like
BERSERKER
this is not okay, this is not some sort of creepy psychic shit, this is a little girl with no coping mechanisms disassociating
BERSERKER
one of the things that umineko does so well, that it took eight episodes to get to the point of, is that it has to destroy "magic" in order to rebuild magic

magic is not some mystical force that changes the world in defiance of reality.

magic is how people rewrite reality to suit their needs and empower themselves
pixie lovemail
exactly. god i love it so fucking much
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