CChuuni
State of the CC -- In MA! I haz a new laptop! old one is melting and so fucking hot :V I haz pizza but as with laptop: not the capacity to set it up ayyyyyy
CChuuni
for some reason my phone won't charge while plugged into laptop [old] so I gotta go... get it. And go back to bed. And get night meds. also my lymph system is trying to murder me. holy cow
CChuuni
I thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiink?????????????????????????????????? I may have semi-successfully explained the hardest parts of my Economic upgrade to my Dad???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
CChuuni
need more question marks :V
CChuuni
it did devolve into hours of fighting and yelling like I warned it would because we both get crazy frustrated with our inabilities to properly express what we mean in a way the other can latch on
CChuuni
This was prompted by Moosey telling Jason to talk to me but ironically where Jason was talking about UBI and what he's calling the "fifth estate" [church, nobility, labor, media / people on UBI and or "others" aka: those who buy because automation is inevitable]
CChuuni
I was trying to explain why I don't like that, and how we could in fact employ people who otherwise are seen as incapable
CChuuni
ie: instead of just I buy therefore I contribute
CChuuni
actually helping save other people time and reviewing things and product testing and explorers/curators etc. etc.
CChuuni
/f a l l s over
CChuuni
We did eventually wake up mom with the yelling
CChuuni
lmfao HILARIOUSLY TO ME
CChuuni
Luffy-bro of all people understood it easiest
CChuuni
and was helping me try to explain it back
CChuuni
did not see that coming lol
CChuuni
though it always reassures me when ANYONE ELSE GETS IT
CChuuni
and of course Dad tends to go Devil's advocate where he's like "Okay I get it but what if someone else--" and I go mad because I'm like
CChuuni
"No. You can't artificially portray to me someone else's argument because then I can't tell if I'm progressing and what I said made sense to get there. Stop."
CChuuni
which I get is really hard for him because that's how he straight up THINKS
CChuuni
in terms of how other people see things; but that is like the thing I am blind at. I can only trust what people say and/or work through it like math problems; show me step by step where you tripped up so I can see what I explained poorly.
CChuuni
I wonder if I should sleep or try to get pizza and -- no fuck it def. sleep. I cannot get my body to move enough to get in the car again even for pokemon XDDD
CChuuni
okay bbl o/
Exacerangutan
I still hold that in full post-scarcity circumstances, an economy that mandates labor is problematic at best, but
CChuuni
it doesn't mandate but it does encourage it by reconcieving "labor" since sharing and generating data is part of it
Exacerangutan
I was discussing this with my brothers when I was down in Texas, so it's been on my mind, because they came at it from different angles than I'd considered before (which is why discussion with a lot of people is important!!!!)
CChuuni
yay
CChuuni
!!!
Exacerangutan
I think their main concern was
Exacerangutan
in a work-optional post-scarcity society, the people who do work would be bitter towards the people who don't feel compelled to at the moment
Exacerangutan
unless they were somehow given drastically different life opportunities of some kind
Exacerangutan
...the way they talked about it sounded almost like separation into castes
CChuuni
that's the problem I have with UBI
Exacerangutan
...which... I guess some might, but I feel like that's mainly scarcity-based thinking. >_> Which obviously is still a habit that's with us now, but
Exacerangutan
in a truly post-scarcity society, it doesn't
Exacerangutan
cost you anything that someone else is surviving
CChuuni
ya
Exacerangutan
it would be like getting angry at deer for not financing the EPA
Exacerangutan
besides which, while I'm all for some compensation for labor when it's no longer obligatory, I feel like the main drive toward labor is
Exacerangutan
wanting to do things
CChuuni
yes that is what it is moreover
CChuuni
sharing things
CChuuni
look
Exacerangutan
I mean I'm seeing this from a scientist point of view
CChuuni
I'll explain it better next chapter outline
𝔯𝔞𝔦𝔫𝔟𝔬𝔴 𝔭𝔦𝔯𝔞𝔠𝑦~
gddamn those deer I knew they were shifty bastards
𝔯𝔞𝔦𝔫𝔟𝔬𝔴 𝔭𝔦𝔯𝔞𝔠𝑦~
/shot
Exacerangutan
that if I could survive comfortably without working
CChuuni
lmao
CChuuni
exactly
CChuuni
no wait
CChuuni
okay yes
CChuuni
I think?
CChuuni
keep going orz
Exacerangutan
....I would still do at least 3/4 as much work as I do, and maybe more, because I wouldn't be worrying about finances and job searching and so on
Exacerangutan
forcing people to do things can sometimes squeeze some more productivity out of them, but IMO mainly it gets them to burn out faster
CChuuni
it's not force
CChuuni
it's letting people find their own bliss
Exacerangutan
...I mean if it's "do the thing or you will be homeless and sick and hungry" it's force
CChuuni
no
CChuuni
we're post scarcity remember?
Exacerangutan
right but if the only access to necessary resources is through labor
Exacerangutan
even in post-scarcity, you can have manufactured scarcity
Exacerangutan
//gestures at the Cardassians//
CChuuni
right which is why I'm pre-empting it
CChuuni
also
CChuuni
dude
Exacerangutan
I mean it usually ends up requiring fascism in extreme cases, but
CChuuni
Robbie's little snores are soooooooooooooooo cute
Exacerangutan
Robbie? o.o
CChuuni
Moosey said he never saw him so in love with someone that everytime he sees me he jumps on all things to come cuddle and kiss me lol
CChuuni
Mom's service dog
CChuuni
he's under her chair and snoring
Exacerangutan
ohhh
Exacerangutan
XD
CChuuni
the rest of us are watching The good place
CChuuni
no like Jason was talking about the five estates
CChuuni
but the problem with all of that is that it's still about ownership of goods
CChuuni
my Dad was talking about automation being replacement for work but he was saying how
CChuuni
when industrialization etc. replaced agriculture as labor
CChuuni
there was a new product [clothes etc/ "stuff"] that was being made and that more people than just the rare wealthy could obtain
CChuuni
but that there wouldn't be one now
CChuuni
and I disagreed
CChuuni
because what the new "stuff" is; is yet more art/media/games/gaming, "time"
CChuuni
and that all labour is in essence about time
CChuuni
and my Dad was frustrated that he doesn't even want to look at his email inbox because there's too much spam etc.
CChuuni
and it's like me and Steam
CChuuni
I have nearly 7000 games and no capacity to really in depth play them all etc.
CChuuni
so people adequately expressing and saving each other time and bringing each other enjoyment IS the new stuff and important
CChuuni
and it's like service dogs
Exacerangutan
CChuuni
yes you have pets, but service dogs are also more stable and happy, not just because of training, but because they are satisfied to be doing something that helps and gives that feeling of accomplishment
CChuuni
and indeed
CChuuni
one of the training things for dogs that mess up a whole neighborhood is to take them around and do a St. Bernard thing, of having them bring water bottles and things to people
Exacerangutan
I don't quite follow how this addresses the ground-level argument that making labor a requisite for basic living conditions is inconsistent with a post-scarcity society >_>
CChuuni
no it's not!!!!
CChuuni
you are automatically guaranteed housing, food, etc. because you are automatically part of humanity and generate data and it's necessary to incorporate that data and etc.
Exacerangutan
flailing and yelling no doesn't actually address it either! -_-
Exacerangutan
wh-
Exacerangutan
.......hrmn.
CChuuni
/huff
Exacerangutan
so the counter-argument is that
Exacerangutan
by existing
Exacerangutan
and interacting with the world/marketplaces/etc at all
Exacerangutan
you generate data of sufficient value to offset your costs of living?
CChuuni
yes!!! in post-scarcity yes
CChuuni
and indeed
CChuuni
that your interactions etc. are part of it ->
CChuuni
but you can opt out it too etc.
CChuuni
and pave your own way if it pleases you etc.
CChuuni
just as I was saying you could opt to request for "explorers" to come see your stuff and if they like it, spread the word and shit etc.
CChuuni
and my Dad was confused like "why would anyone not"
Exacerangutan
sorry I'm puzzled because it sounds like you said the same thing I said, but added "but that's OK because you pay by contributing to national statistics" XD
Exacerangutan
which... I'm not sure the value of a person's data is really high enough for that to be an economic factor, but
CChuuni
= Mister Metokur. He doesn't want to deal with the hassle of too many people, monetizing his shit, making videos for money instead of fun etc.
CChuuni
I mean ther'es more into it, but you aren't forced to create labor period. the problem is we still need to reform what we acknowledge as useful and "labor" to society like
CChuuni
watching things etc.
Exacerangutan
that is true as well
Exacerangutan
the difference between a high-quality LP and a professional critic's review is that the LP may be totally unpaid but actually shows you the game through the lens of someone who demonstrably knows what they're talking about
Exacerangutan
although monetization means less good LPs are unpaid, but
CChuuni
also pros are paid for by special interests so it needs more removal
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