Mad Larkin
[us politics] You know, I'd be a lot more comfortable with people who advocate punching Nazis and guillotining rich people if they didn't seem to think that being hesitant about such actions was, in itself, a terrible thing
Mad Larkin
am I going to wag my finger at someone who punched a Nazi? no
Mad Larkin
am I going to do it myself? most likely not, unless something drastic happens
Mad Larkin
I'm just not a punchy person
Mad Larkin
and I feel like the whole guillotine thing has become nothing more than an edgy punchline
Mad Larkin
and it's such you're with us or against us, black and white thinking that I feel ignores the messiness of life
Adarglad
whispers: this
Luke Skywanker
YES
Luke Skywanker
If you can't handle a discussion about my moral qualms, we're edging towards mob mentality
Luke Skywanker
Which has never gotten us anywhere, thanks
Mad Larkin
very much that, yes!
Un(t)sundered
yeah, agreed
Un(t)sundered
I'd have a hard time punching anyone
Mad Larkin
and I feel like a certain amount of the people I see talking like this are teenagers, which explains the extreme black/whiteness, but is also troubling
Un(t)sundered
but if punchier people can/want to punch a Nazi... I'm not gonna stop them
Mad Larkin
because teenagers don't have the life experience to understand why no, just killing people isn't going to instantly turn the world into a utopia
Mad Larkin
and, like, there was this thing I saw going around tumblr a couple of months ago, where people had the idea that since only a few corporations produce the most harmful waste, the best thing to do is kill the CEOs of those companies and that'll solve everything
Mad Larkin
which, no, that won't do shit, what we need are regulations in place
Mad Larkin
that isn't as sexy and extreme, but that's the way the world works
bluecanary
big agree
bluecanary
I don't want to punch anybody
Rogal Dorn
I have thoughts on this, as a person who defaults to Nazi punching and is aware that there need to be some serious consequences to corporations acting in incredibly destructive ways.

It's okay to not want to punch Nazis personally and realize regulation is better than guillotining some execs and believing that fixes a systemic issue.

At the same time force
Rogal Dorn
Ful a d at times illegal action may be required to fix shit. But it's not for everyone and there are numerous ways to make a more just world.

My issue is with moderates and both siderism that ends up always favoring the powerful and the oppressors by equating violence used by each side as the same
Mad Larkin
the violence is not the same, but it's still something I'm not comfortable taking part in
bluecanary
[a faint voice from the pacifism bunker] i think the real problem is prescriptivism
Rogal Dorn
That's okay
Mad Larkin
and if people see that as a problem, I'm going to have a problem with them
bluecanary
every person is entitled to weigh their own ethical beliefs and come to a conclusion that they feel adequately serves them
Mad Larkin
and I doubt you're the type doing nothing to change things other than replying "guillotine" to tumblr posts
Rogal Dorn
Violence brutalizes the person who does it as well as the person who it is done upon.
Mad Larkin
yeah, it does
bluecanary
disagreement is healthy in ethical problems but making an enemy out of an ally who is imperfect
bluecanary
is wack
bluecanary
and something the left does a lot these days
bluecanary
if 2 people agree that nazis are bad and disagree on what action to take regarding this fact
bluecanary
they should not be enemies
Mad Larkin
and, to be quite honest, I don't want to live in a world where violent revolution is anything less than a last resort. I like civilians not dying horribly. I like not dying horribly. I know that some things must change and that may affect my life, but I like living in an orderly, non chaotic, non killing in the streets world.
bluecanary
i think, a careful line has to be drawn between punching and murder, as well
Mad Larkin
that, too
bluecanary
if someone is seriously advocating murder thats a whole different ethical problem
bluecanary
but hitting a dude in the face or milkshaking them or whatever is not that much of a slippery slope
bluecanary
i still dont want to do it personally and i dont think if you dont want to do it you should be fuckin bullied about it and all
Rogal Dorn
A guy with a busted jsw has a chance to rethink their dumb shit
Un(t)sundered
yeah, I feel like punching is not typically a slippery slope (and that the idea of same is... a little bullshit)
bluecanary
i think a thing that might happen is they'll just start hitting us first
bluecanary
and that'll be bad
Rogal Dorn
All I ask from those that don't want to do it is that they don't hark to the call of order over justice.
bluecanary
because right now they have a system which will support them
Rogal Dorn
consciously does not go into a rant how the revolutions of 1848 failed because people did just that
bluecanary
hmmm and i dont know if punching is justice either. i think it would feel good but not solve the problem.
bluecanary
i think it'll get them to double down and get people feeling sorry for them as a martyr or whatever
Mad Larkin
I'm not going to stop anyone from doing anything, and I'm not going to judge people for doing what they feel they need to do, even killing if it's a complicated, desperate enough situation
bluecanary
right
Mad Larkin
but don't ask me to be part of your revolution, unless there's a place in it for, IDK, posting blog posts or stuffing envelopes or something like that, because I am not a brave, revolutionary sort of person
Mad Larkin
I am an easily scared, awkward, introverted person, and that is not going to change
bluecanary
gently scoops up
bluecanary
hug
Mad Larkin
<3 thanks
Jay
I think the call for the guillotine is mostly (mostly, not entirely) hyperbole from people who just want to make clear how strongly they feel about the situation, but who'd probably panic if the guillotine actually came out
Jay
the punching nazi thing... I am strongly in support of, even though I have no idea if I, personally, would have the guts to punch a nazi if the opportunity presented itself. I think there's a lot to be said for making it very clear to them they can't just trot around in public pretending their normal, acceptable participants in political discourse
Mad Larkin
it probably is, but it's gotten to be a shorthand enough that it's annoying (the guillotine thing)
Mad Larkin
I'm mostly in support of other people punching Nazis, with the caveat that those people should make darn sure that they're actually punching a Nazi
Jay
there is no room for discussion and 'disagreement' with people who hold those kind of beliefs, and making them afraid to parade them in public is worthwhile (and has definitely made an impact)
Jay
yeah
Jay
or, y'know, other flavors of fascist/white supremacist
Mad Larkin
them too, yeah
Mad Larkin
that whole segment can get stomped on (by others), I'm not going to cry
Mad Larkin
but there was a post going around that was basically "why you should punch Nazis" and the answer to the question of what you should do if you accidentally punch someone not a Nazi was "run" which I felt was kind of callous. Like, if you're unwilling to accept the consequences of possibly cold-cocking an innocent person, maybe don't do it
Mad Larkin
or do research first, it's not like these guys are quiet about their beliefs
Jay
I have to admit, I mostly like the reasoning of that post, that one point bothers me, but I also think it's pretty flippant
Mad Larkin
I mostly like it, or at least I don't think it's bad, necessarily, I just shrink from people being flippant about actual violence
Mad Larkin
is it justified violence? abosolutely
Mad Larkin
but maybe take it seriously
Luke Skywanker
This may be an unpopular opinion, but I guess what bothers me the most aside from the "if you're not punching people you ARE the problem" rhetoric is the "discussion and compassion never solves anything" which has been disproven over and over. In the sense that it might not work for Richard Spencer, but LOTS of these people are radicalized youth and
Luke Skywanker
to say that there's "no point" in trying to change them is really upsetting to me. Same ideology which says you can't do anything about jihadists.
Luke Skywanker
I am NOT advocating letting them say whatever they want on the street or not standing up to them.
Luke Skywanker
I'm saying that the idea that once someone has this thought, they're never reachable again goes against my humanitarian ideals.
Mad Larkin
there is that, too. yes, people can change, they have in the past. no one person in particular has to help them change, but giving up on people doesn't help
Jay
no, that's not helpful either, but treating their views as if they're a valid position on a spectrum where compromise is possible isn't acceptable either. Sure, talk to them, but make sure it's from a position of 'your views are moral anathema and here's why'
Jay
there's no acceptable place in public debate for 'and I think everyone who doesn't look and think like me should be locked up/killed/exiled'
Mad Larkin
well, yeah, my POV would be "stop saying that, it's an odious belief, here's why"
Jay
exactly
Jay
Do NOT invite Richard Spencer to comment on things, do not interview him, do not treat him as if he has any valid or defensible views on anything, just point out what a piece of filth he is and how morally indefensible his views are
Jay
and, yeah, if people get the chance I'm all in favor of them punching him in the face, honestly
Luke Skywanker
Agreed.
Luke Skywanker
I mean, in terms of treating it like valid speech
Luke Skywanker
I just despair at the "these people are no longer people" mentality because that's honestly how we got here.
Mad Larkin
yeah, they're horrible people with despicable beliefs who shouldn't be given a platform, but they're still people
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