LuCCifer
[Nationalism] I can't believe I have to say this but... the problem with Hitler isn't that he was Nationalist, Socialist, or Globalist.

It's that he was a racist genocidal psychopath. The End.
LuCCifer
A-Also... he wasn't globalist. That's ... not what it means
LuCCifer
Globalism isn't synonymous with imperialism, colonialism, and conquering.
LuCCifer
/screams into hands/ I'm ok
LuCCifer
Globalism is simply a trade policy that doesn't seek to isolate or be entirely self-sustaining.
LuCCifer
Nationalism isn't even an economic or trading policy so to try to put them on opposite ends is wrong
LuCCifer
LuCCifer
Nationalism is patriotism. If you want to point to a good Republican nationalist TEDDY FUCKING ROOSEVELT created the National Parks as the most Nationalist thing the US has.
LuCCifer
US Olympic teams, the flag, anthems, monuments, <- all nationalist
LuCCifer
I'm pro Nationalism :| But I don't use Napoleon as "SEE HOW STRONG IT IS!?" Yeah. That's because I'm not an idiot who's fond of shooting myself in the foot to say "The problem with Napoleon was just that he wanted to conquer the world I mean. Stay home broski gawd."
LuCCifer
/rubs temples
LuCCifer
Economically Nationalism has traditionally always been a boon to its countries. :|||||||||| No, no, hear me out, this is usually good. It's like South Korea, and Vietnam after their wars, and the US with the national parks etc. And even to a -degree- Japan's economic miracle.
LuCCifer
Because motivating people to follow and express their passions is an economic boon. Crazy huh.
LuCCifer
Again, that doesn't make it have anything to do with globalism.
LuCCifer
Please do not confuse "made in my country" for EITHER Nationalism OR Globalism.
LuCCifer
Buying exclusively made in the USA (if you're American) IS nationalist, because it's pride in not outsourcing WHICH IS anti-globalist (outsourcing is globalism)
LuCCifer
but that is an individual's choice and whether they are a patriotic/Nationalist or seek cheapest goods (globalism in 2019, it will change)
LuCCifer
But just because something is made in the US (or your country) does not make that act individually Nationalist. kopperhed which historical (not within the last 50 years) US President was saying that the US always needed to maintain its own manufacturing in order to stay economically strong and not rely on other countries??
LuCCifer
~Anyway~ That's why BUYING is nationalist, producing isn't, production is always good, but as a company it's also good to sell abroad, indeed, Vietnam makes nearly ALL of its money right now from exports -- https://imgs.plurk.com/Qwu/T4u/JywH6AY0EXb1CeFIPGj78n1riLs_lg.png which helps the whole country (that's GDP per capita)
LuCCifer
companies are inherently globalist in nature though, so I'm not really clear why GOP idiots some people are misconstruing it as some sort of "leftist" economic policy because
LuCCifer
USSR was not globalist at all
LuCCifer
they were extremely anti-globalist and indeed banned imports and didn't have enough to cover their own people much less create exports
LuCCifer
My head hurts. I don't know why I'm even trying to explain all this, it's probably either understood or never will be but it's important.
LuCCifer
Please do not be fooled by either 1) morons 2) deceivers specifically aiming to deceive
LuCCifer
And for the record
LuCCifer
yes Hitler WAS a nationalist
LuCCifer
But just because he painted architecture doesn't mean artists who do patriotic proud architecture instead of GRIM!DARK https://imgs.plurk.com/Qwu/4Oj/hlkshIvlg853bpCTuC4kRSALwBR_lg.jpg are bad???????
LuCCifer
*sorry I meant to type GRIM!DARK Weimar
LuCCifer
although for US it would be "Thomas Cole is Nationalist????? That doesn't mean Andy Warhol being more globalist prove anything?"
TheApostate ™
Are they no longer teaching in history class, the fact that Hitler had millions executed just because of their religious beliefs
TheApostate ™
Incvluding children
TheApostate ™
including*
LuCCifer
No. Some idiot was asked to explain how to avoid getting the nationalist label thrown on them for being anti-globalist.... annnnnnnnnnnnd she instantly went to "Hitler is synonymous with nationalism in the US but he wasn't, he was globalist"
LuCCifer
also the problem with him wasn't the make Germany Great Again but the invading other countries
LuCCifer
that part made everyone go "(unsure) what the actual fuck are you trying to say? Genocide is fine as long as it stays in your own country?" Which I actually DO think she was trying to say but
LuCCifer
I opened a poll
LuCCifer
LuCCifer
Also you know what would be really nationalistic?
LuCCifer
Green New Deal
The Green New Deal
LuCCifer
But nooooooo all the same dumb fucks being like "the news is just taking her out of context!!!" (pro-tip her explanation of context makes it worse) are freeeeeeeeeaking out about how the GND is idk... ~~~impossible~~~ I guess
Exacerangutan
...well
Exacerangutan
my one point of disagreement is that there are two main ways (as I see it) of being nationalistic
Exacerangutan
what I think you're praising is "don't just say your nation is the best, or kick everyone else to keep them down, do things to actively make your nation better so that everyone else sees it as being great"
Exacerangutan
there's also the bucketcrab approach, which honestly is probably more common
JudgeCF
Also his paintings weren't edgy enough
Exacerangutan
which is less about actually making things better, and more about posturing and handing out asspats to your base to draw attention away from problems
Exacerangutan
...but just making things better isn't... in itself fundamentally nationalist anyway, so... I wouldn't... normally call that especially nationalistic without some of the "us versus them" quality. >_>
LuCCifer
no
LuCCifer
well
LuCCifer
I mean there is inherent tribalism in the whole nation
LuCCifer
nation > the world
LuCCifer
vs. globalism which is personal $ via trading with other nations > your own country/tribe
LuCCifer
but nationalism isn't inherently "FUCK THE REST OF THE WORLD"
LuCCifer
see again
LuCCifer
Teddy Fucking Roosevelt
LuCCifer
WHICH YOU WANNA KNOW WHY THE REPUBLICANS DON'T TALK ABOUT HIM?
LuCCifer
IMMA FUCKING TELL YOU WHY
LuCCifer
because the GOP is 100% bought by private interests
Exacerangutan
...I mean I understand the words you're saying, but that's like saying "nepotism isn't bad, because what if someone in your family is actually good at the job you give them" ...well... yes but then that's just... a good thing to do, not especially nepotistic...
LuCCifer
Private interests go directly against nationalism
LuCCifer
No
LuCCifer
That's not what I'm saying at all
Exacerangutan
LuCCifer
Nationalism is good
LuCCifer
And important
LuCCifer
And should just be dismissed
Exacerangutan
by nationalism you mean
Exacerangutan
...doing good things with the word "national" in the name?
LuCCifer
No
LuCCifer
I mean even
LuCCifer
"MY COUNTRY >>>> EVERYONE ELSE"
Exacerangutan
I'm trying to pin down the distinction you're making, since you seem to be saying you mean a totally different, positive thing, and that you don't mean... what I've always heard anyone else mean by Nationalism.
LuCCifer
Yeah it's EASY to take too far
Exacerangutan
...........I mean... >_>
LuCCifer
Okay well I grew up as an army brat and EXTREMELY patriotic and 4th of July was my favorite holiday
LuCCifer
and I think Bastille day for France is awesome and I think
Exacerangutan
...most people don't take "we're better than everyone" to mean "therefore we should demonstrate it by being great"; they usually take it to mean "therefore we can do whatever we want and they'd better get out of our way"
LuCCifer
countries SHOULD celebrate their own cultural history
LuCCifer
Okay but that's not inherently part of nationalism
LuCCifer
That's like
LuCCifer
a sports team that decides
LuCCifer
"NOW WE RAPE THE OTHER TEAM'S CHEERLEADERS"
LuCCifer
Like that's not really team spirit
Exacerangutan
...the trouble with the sports team analogy in general is that sports teams are... sort of fundamentally competitive in a way nations aren't
LuCCifer
Um
LuCCifer
disagree
LuCCifer
nations are only created because of fear of others
Exacerangutan
NATO is mainly about the US proving that it's militarily stronger than Britain, after all
LuCCifer
mind you globalism is about trade and using that trade to maintain peace
LuCCifer
AND THAT IS GREAT
Exacerangutan
all life is struggle and zero-sum competition, etc, etc
LuCCifer
but it can ALSO BE
LuCCifer
oppressing impoverished / third world nations and using them for slave labor in order to create products as cheap as possible for the rich in the "first world" countries to enjoy their wealth
LuCCifer
I don't like the broad dismissal of "Globalism = imperialism/colonialism/ONE WORLD"
LuCCifer
but Nationalism is not just "WE MUST CONQUER THE REST"
LuCCifer
Even manifest destiny
LuCCifer
WHICH
LuCCifer
YO
LuCCifer
INJUN
Exacerangutan
I'm trying to think of examples of Good Nationalism (in the competitive "my nation is better than yours!!!" sense) that are actually fundamentally nationalist. >_>
LuCCifer
I respect as an important progressive maneuver for American history
Exacerangutan
I don't see how national parks is any more fundamentally nationalist than... literally anything the federal government does for public benefit.
LuCCifer
YO
LuCCifer
NATIONAL
LuCCifer
FUCKING
LuCCifer
PARKS
LuCCifer
/SHAKES YOU
LuCCifer
NO
LuCCifer
THey awere -- OKAY HANG ON
Exacerangutan
...yes it has the word "national" in it but you can make a garden in your back yard without going MY YARD IS THE BEST IN THE COUNTY, FIGHT ME!!! X-(
LuCCifer
BECAUSE IT HISTORICALLY WAS THE FIRST OF ITS KIND I WILL MAUL YOU
LuCCifer
Like I slap-fight over whether going to the Moon was nationalist
LuCCifer
I VOTE YES OBVIOUSLY BIG FUCKING SURPRISE
LuCCifer
CC who practically bases her economic principles off of Civ games :V
LuCCifer
no but
LuCCifer
the FLAG ITSELF EVEN
LuCCifer
/SIGH
LuCCifer
SO I HAVE THIS LIKE
LuCCifer
BIG THING
LuCCifer
About the National Anthem
LuCCifer
because my Dad always did (LOL)
LuCCifer
DID YOU KNOW
LuCCifer
We did not HAVE an anthem until 1916?
LuCCifer
AND THEY TOOK A VOTE
LuCCifer
they voted on the anthem
Exacerangutan
but Civ forces unnatural conflict by having zero-sum win conditions
LuCCifer
exactly why I'm fixing it even more (evilsmirk)
Exacerangutan
which has long been one of my biggest problems with Civ as a simulation tbh
LuCCifer
and the reason the star spangled banner won
LuCCifer
is because America the Beautiful is 1) by a lesbian 2) religious, not militaristic
LuCCifer
THAT'S IT
LuCCifer
THAT'S WHY
LuCCifer
I HAVE SO MUCH SALT ABOUT THAT
LuCCifer
I will literally GO OUT OF MY FUCKING WAY to change that
LuCCifer
Just watch
LuCCifer
in our lifetime
Exacerangutan
I mean, as militaristic anthems go, SSB is pretty chill, in fairness
LuCCifer
(eyeroll) BUT IT'S STUPID
LuCCifer
It's to a BRITISH FUCKING SONG
Exacerangutan
since it's not YEAH WE KICK ALL YOUR ASSES!!! and more HOLY SHIT WE SURVIVED HOLY SHIT
LuCCifer
GOD SAVE THE QUEEN
LuCCifer
AND FOR A REALLY FUCKING STUPID WAR
LuCCifer
America the Beautiful is AMAZING
Exacerangutan
.......wait is it god save the queen? i thought it was a drinking song...
LuCCifer
And I'm not just saying that because I'm literally writing a Nationalist as fuck book to push for the Green New Deal
LuCCifer
with chapter titles using the lyrics
LuCCifer
yeah hang on I'll link
LuCCifer
But mind you (LOL)
Exacerangutan
.......
LuCCifer
My issue is STRAIGHT UP fucking Identity politics for once
Exacerangutan
I don't think that's the same melody yo
LuCCifer
.............
Exacerangutan
that's the same melody as My Country Tis Of Thee
LuCCifer
Oh you're right
LuCCifer
I've only had half a cup of rum but I was like
LuCCifer
LITERALLY SINGING IT BEFORE I WENT "-- no wait that one came in 3rd in the contest"
LuCCifer
WHATEVER
LuCCifer
AMERICA THE BEAUTIFUL WAS THE ONLY ONE THAT WAS NOT BASED ON A BRITISH MELODY
Exacerangutan
"To Anacreon in Heaven" is apparently the song used for the SSB
LuCCifer
thank you (LOL) I will remember that
LuCCifer
I hope :T (again: half a cup of rum, although the migraine does more damage on my memory than drinking so I have never actually blacked out while drinking before)
LuCCifer
ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
LuCCifer
My Dad's issue is that it's harder to sing
LuCCifer
(LOL) WHICH I THINK IS SILLY
Exacerangutan
..........which is apparently the 1700s version of Rebel Yell, I guess
LuCCifer
but his family has like amazing vocal chords so before I got sick I had a 5 octave range
LuCCifer
....... yo
LuCCifer
n e way
LuCCifer
NATIONALISM:
LuCCifer
until the 1950s saying the pledge of allegiance in schools was NOT A THING
LuCCifer
it was only spread so a dude could sell flags
LuCCifer
I AM NOT SAYING THAT IS A GOOD THING OR SOMETHING TO BE PROUD OF OR PROOF THAT NATIONALISM IS COOL
LuCCifer
because I found that a bit weird and creepy -> AND AGAIN THIS IS ME I wore flag pjs and shirt yesterday and the first bathing suit I sewed (because they did not make them for DDs) was American flag
LuCCifer
AND I DID MOTHERFUCKING COLOR GUARD
LuCCifer
A "SPORT" ALL ABOUT "I WILL DEFEND THIS FUCKING INANIMATE OBJECT WITH MY LIFE
Exacerangutan
I mean I'm with you on that part, Nationalism is definitely a rhetorical device, and one often used in sales pitches
LuCCifer
I mean :T
LuCCifer
It can be
LuCCifer
But so is
LuCCifer
sex, music, opera, fandom, etc.
LuCCifer
I don't think things that can be used for great evil should be dismissed outright -- GRANTED I have a tougher time saying "yes music has MURDERED MILLIONS!!!!!!" which you can to an -extent- lay at the feet of nationalism but
LuCCifer
BUT I see it more as Identity politics
LuCCifer
yeah THERE IS SOME REALLY FUCKED UP SHIT WITH IT
LuCCifer
And it doesn't take an extreme genius to use it for harm
LuCCifer
(religion too )
LuCCifer
buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut
Exacerangutan
...oh I thought you meant you saw it as a form of identity politics
LuCCifer
Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater
LuCCifer
(thinking)
Exacerangutan
which I mean it sort of is so that would be fair tbh
LuCCifer
(thinking)
LuCCifer
I MEAN YEAH NO YOU ARE RIGHT
LuCCifer
It IS
LuCCifer
IT VERY MUCH IS
LuCCifer
100% is
LuCCifer
yo
Exacerangutan
//CC suddenly no longer nationalist//
LuCCifer
that's why I LIKE IT
LuCCifer
though because it's
LuCCifer
NO
Exacerangutan
//ducks//
LuCCifer
because it's not just
LuCCifer
"I WAS BORN HERE AND I LOVE IT"
LuCCifer
but it's kind of like tribes yanno?
LuCCifer
you can CHOOSE it
LuCCifer
buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut
LuCCifer
you gotta like
LuCCifer
walk the walk
LuCCifer
BUT BUT BUT BUT
LuCCifer
BUT
LuCCifer
BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT
LuCCifer
I fucking will fucking hate you if you just use it for fucking people over X-(
Exacerangutan
...I mean in a way it's worse because identity politics is "I'm X and that's different from Y and should be acknowledged and respected" more than "I'm X and THAT'S BETTER THAN ANY OTHER THING"
LuCCifer
although that's not saying anything because I feel that way about everything oops
Exacerangutan
once you bake in "being like me is the best" I have a hard time seeing the part that doesn't involve being down on everyone else XD
LuCCifer
well
LuCCifer
I don't think
LuCCifer
being like
LuCCifer
"I'm French and that's the best!!!!" can be held without defending it for why you believe that
LuCCifer
and indeed
LuCCifer
I think the defense of it
LuCCifer
is the act of patriotism itself
LuCCifer
make sense?
LuCCifer
LIKE
LuCCifer
yeaaaaaaaaaaah obviously I'm not EVER gonna say "BEING IROQUOIS THAN LIKE EVERYTHING ELSE" because I almost just threw up
LuCCifer
/eyes meds
LuCCifer
anyway
LuCCifer
like
Exacerangutan
...I mean sure but then it's like the circular nature of defending sports teams, you can say anything about the thing you like is why it's the best because it's a thing about the thing you like.
LuCCifer
*Is better than
LuCCifer
yes exactly
Exacerangutan
I like green because it makes me think of spring which is great because things are green!
LuCCifer
AND THAT IS HOW I SEE NATIONALISM
LuCCifer
CONGRATS
LuCCifer
I mean yes
Exacerangutan
........that's nothing to do with it being better that's just you making up an excuse to shit on summer, fall, and winter.
LuCCifer
I CAN LIST YOU SPORTS TEAM RIOTS AND WARS AND TRIBALISM AND GENOCIDES
LuCCifer
but in the end
Exacerangutan
...I mean that's not going far to support the "nationalism is good" argument. XD
LuCCifer
It's not the "I LOVE MY FUCKING TEAM MOOOOOST" that is the problem
LuCCifer
Like I do genuinely think
Exacerangutan
IDK, again, any form of Good Nationalism I can think of is indistiguishable from just... doing....... good things
Exacerangutan
...unless you specifically refuse to do good things anywhere else
Exacerangutan
........in which case we're back to the same problem.
LuCCifer
if Hitler wasn't also FUCKING FUCKING RACIST and using racism to incite violence, scapegoating, MURDER, and etc. then
LuCCifer
well I'VE SAID IT BEFORE AND YOU CAN THROW ME ON A CROSS but I don't think his painting topics were inherently wrong
Exacerangutan
like, "we should sort out or problems at home before we mess with everyone else" is "nationalistic" in some sense but it's also just... shitty to go after everyone else when you can't get your own shit in order
LuCCifer
I think wanting to promote Germanic architecture and say "look how beautiful our landscape and architecture is!!!" is something to encourage from EVERY country
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