CChuuni
[Nationalism] I can't believe I have to say this but... the problem with Hitler isn't that he was Nationalist, Socialist, or Globalist.

It's that he was a racist genocidal psychopath. The End.
CChuuni
A-Also... he wasn't globalist. That's ... not what it means
CChuuni
Globalism isn't synonymous with imperialism, colonialism, and conquering.
CChuuni
/screams into hands/ I'm ok
CChuuni
Globalism is simply a trade policy that doesn't seek to isolate or be entirely self-sustaining.
CChuuni
Nationalism isn't even an economic or trading policy so to try to put them on opposite ends is wrong
CChuuni
CChuuni
Nationalism is patriotism. If you want to point to a good Republican nationalist TEDDY FUCKING ROOSEVELT created the National Parks as the most Nationalist thing the US has.
CChuuni
US Olympic teams, the flag, anthems, monuments, <- all nationalist
CChuuni
I'm pro Nationalism :| But I don't use Napoleon as "SEE HOW STRONG IT IS!?" Yeah. That's because I'm not an idiot who's fond of shooting myself in the foot to say "The problem with Napoleon was just that he wanted to conquer the world I mean. Stay home broski gawd."
CChuuni
/rubs temples
CChuuni
Economically Nationalism has traditionally always been a boon to its countries. :|||||||||| No, no, hear me out, this is usually good. It's like South Korea, and Vietnam after their wars, and the US with the national parks etc. And even to a -degree- Japan's economic miracle.
CChuuni
Because motivating people to follow and express their passions is an economic boon. Crazy huh.
CChuuni
Again, that doesn't make it have anything to do with globalism.
CChuuni
Please do not confuse "made in my country" for EITHER Nationalism OR Globalism.
CChuuni
Buying exclusively made in the USA (if you're American) IS nationalist, because it's pride in not outsourcing WHICH IS anti-globalist (outsourcing is globalism)
CChuuni
but that is an individual's choice and whether they are a patriotic/Nationalist or seek cheapest goods (globalism in 2019, it will change)
CChuuni
But just because something is made in the US (or your country) does not make that act individually Nationalist. kopperhed which historical (not within the last 50 years) US President was saying that the US always needed to maintain its own manufacturing in order to stay economically strong and not rely on other countries??
CChuuni
~Anyway~ That's why BUYING is nationalist, producing isn't, production is always good, but as a company it's also good to sell abroad, indeed, Vietnam makes nearly ALL of its money right now from exports -- https://imgs.plurk.com/Qwu/T4u/JywH6AY0EXb1CeFIPGj78n1riLs_lg.png which helps the whole country (that's GDP per capita)
CChuuni
companies are inherently globalist in nature though, so I'm not really clear why GOP idiots some people are misconstruing it as some sort of "leftist" economic policy because
CChuuni
USSR was not globalist at all
CChuuni
they were extremely anti-globalist and indeed banned imports and didn't have enough to cover their own people much less create exports
CChuuni
My head hurts. I don't know why I'm even trying to explain all this, it's probably either understood or never will be but it's important.
CChuuni
Please do not be fooled by either 1) morons 2) deceivers specifically aiming to deceive
CChuuni
And for the record
CChuuni
yes Hitler WAS a nationalist
CChuuni
But just because he painted architecture doesn't mean artists who do patriotic proud architecture instead of GRIM!DARK https://imgs.plurk.com/Qwu/4Oj/hlkshIvlg853bpCTuC4kRSALwBR_lg.jpg are bad???????
CChuuni
*sorry I meant to type GRIM!DARK Weimar
CChuuni
although for US it would be "Thomas Cole is Nationalist????? That doesn't mean Andy Warhol being more globalist prove anything?"
TheApostate ™
Are they no longer teaching in history class, the fact that Hitler had millions executed just because of their religious beliefs
TheApostate ™
Incvluding children
TheApostate ™
including*
CChuuni
No. Some idiot was asked to explain how to avoid getting the nationalist label thrown on them for being anti-globalist.... annnnnnnnnnnnd she instantly went to "Hitler is synonymous with nationalism in the US but he wasn't, he was globalist"
CChuuni
also the problem with him wasn't the make Germany Great Again but the invading other countries
CChuuni
that part made everyone go "(unsure) what the actual fuck are you trying to say? Genocide is fine as long as it stays in your own country?" Which I actually DO think she was trying to say but
CChuuni
I opened a poll
CChuuni
CChuuni
Also you know what would be really nationalistic?
CChuuni
Green New Deal
The Green New Deal
CChuuni
But nooooooo all the same dumb fucks being like "the news is just taking her out of context!!!" (pro-tip her explanation of context makes it worse) are freeeeeeeeeaking out about how the GND is idk... ~~~impossible~~~ I guess
Exacerangutan
...well
Exacerangutan
my one point of disagreement is that there are two main ways (as I see it) of being nationalistic
Exacerangutan
what I think you're praising is "don't just say your nation is the best, or kick everyone else to keep them down, do things to actively make your nation better so that everyone else sees it as being great"
Exacerangutan
there's also the bucketcrab approach, which honestly is probably more common
JudgeCF
Also his paintings weren't edgy enough
Exacerangutan
which is less about actually making things better, and more about posturing and handing out asspats to your base to draw attention away from problems
Exacerangutan
...but just making things better isn't... in itself fundamentally nationalist anyway, so... I wouldn't... normally call that especially nationalistic without some of the "us versus them" quality. >_>
CChuuni
no
CChuuni
well
CChuuni
I mean there is inherent tribalism in the whole nation
CChuuni
nation > the world
CChuuni
vs. globalism which is personal $ via trading with other nations > your own country/tribe
CChuuni
but nationalism isn't inherently "FUCK THE REST OF THE WORLD"
CChuuni
see again
CChuuni
Teddy Fucking Roosevelt
CChuuni
WHICH YOU WANNA KNOW WHY THE REPUBLICANS DON'T TALK ABOUT HIM?
CChuuni
IMMA FUCKING TELL YOU WHY
CChuuni
because the GOP is 100% bought by private interests
Exacerangutan
...I mean I understand the words you're saying, but that's like saying "nepotism isn't bad, because what if someone in your family is actually good at the job you give them" ...well... yes but then that's just... a good thing to do, not especially nepotistic...
CChuuni
Private interests go directly against nationalism
CChuuni
No
CChuuni
That's not what I'm saying at all
Exacerangutan
CChuuni
Nationalism is good
CChuuni
And important
CChuuni
And should just be dismissed
Exacerangutan
by nationalism you mean
Exacerangutan
...doing good things with the word "national" in the name?
CChuuni
No
CChuuni
I mean even
CChuuni
"MY COUNTRY >>>> EVERYONE ELSE"
Exacerangutan
I'm trying to pin down the distinction you're making, since you seem to be saying you mean a totally different, positive thing, and that you don't mean... what I've always heard anyone else mean by Nationalism.
CChuuni
Yeah it's EASY to take too far
Exacerangutan
...........I mean... >_>
CChuuni
Okay well I grew up as an army brat and EXTREMELY patriotic and 4th of July was my favorite holiday
CChuuni
and I think Bastille day for France is awesome and I think
Exacerangutan
...most people don't take "we're better than everyone" to mean "therefore we should demonstrate it by being great"; they usually take it to mean "therefore we can do whatever we want and they'd better get out of our way"
CChuuni
countries SHOULD celebrate their own cultural history
CChuuni
Okay but that's not inherently part of nationalism
CChuuni
That's like
CChuuni
a sports team that decides
CChuuni
"NOW WE RAPE THE OTHER TEAM'S CHEERLEADERS"
CChuuni
Like that's not really team spirit
Exacerangutan
...the trouble with the sports team analogy in general is that sports teams are... sort of fundamentally competitive in a way nations aren't
CChuuni
Um
CChuuni
disagree
CChuuni
nations are only created because of fear of others
Exacerangutan
NATO is mainly about the US proving that it's militarily stronger than Britain, after all
CChuuni
mind you globalism is about trade and using that trade to maintain peace
CChuuni
AND THAT IS GREAT
Exacerangutan
all life is struggle and zero-sum competition, etc, etc
CChuuni
but it can ALSO BE
CChuuni
oppressing impoverished / third world nations and using them for slave labor in order to create products as cheap as possible for the rich in the "first world" countries to enjoy their wealth
CChuuni
I don't like the broad dismissal of "Globalism = imperialism/colonialism/ONE WORLD"
CChuuni
but Nationalism is not just "WE MUST CONQUER THE REST"
CChuuni
Even manifest destiny
CChuuni
WHICH
CChuuni
YO
CChuuni
INJUN
Exacerangutan
I'm trying to think of examples of Good Nationalism (in the competitive "my nation is better than yours!!!" sense) that are actually fundamentally nationalist. >_>
CChuuni
I respect as an important progressive maneuver for American history
Exacerangutan
I don't see how national parks is any more fundamentally nationalist than... literally anything the federal government does for public benefit.
CChuuni
YO
CChuuni
NATIONAL
CChuuni
FUCKING
CChuuni
PARKS
CChuuni
/SHAKES YOU
CChuuni
NO
CChuuni
THey awere -- OKAY HANG ON
Exacerangutan
...yes it has the word "national" in it but you can make a garden in your back yard without going MY YARD IS THE BEST IN THE COUNTY, FIGHT ME!!! X-(
CChuuni
BECAUSE IT HISTORICALLY WAS THE FIRST OF ITS KIND I WILL MAUL YOU
CChuuni
Like I slap-fight over whether going to the Moon was nationalist
CChuuni
I VOTE YES OBVIOUSLY BIG FUCKING SURPRISE
CChuuni
CC who practically bases her economic principles off of Civ games :V
CChuuni
no but
CChuuni
the FLAG ITSELF EVEN
CChuuni
/SIGH
CChuuni
SO I HAVE THIS LIKE
CChuuni
BIG THING
CChuuni
About the National Anthem
CChuuni
because my Dad always did (LOL)
CChuuni
DID YOU KNOW
CChuuni
We did not HAVE an anthem until 1916?
CChuuni
AND THEY TOOK A VOTE
CChuuni
they voted on the anthem
Exacerangutan
but Civ forces unnatural conflict by having zero-sum win conditions
CChuuni
exactly why I'm fixing it even more (evilsmirk)
Exacerangutan
which has long been one of my biggest problems with Civ as a simulation tbh
CChuuni
and the reason the star spangled banner won
CChuuni
is because America the Beautiful is 1) by a lesbian 2) religious, not militaristic
CChuuni
THAT'S IT
CChuuni
THAT'S WHY
CChuuni
I HAVE SO MUCH SALT ABOUT THAT
CChuuni
I will literally GO OUT OF MY FUCKING WAY to change that
CChuuni
Just watch
CChuuni
in our lifetime
Exacerangutan
I mean, as militaristic anthems go, SSB is pretty chill, in fairness
CChuuni
(eyeroll) BUT IT'S STUPID
CChuuni
It's to a BRITISH FUCKING SONG
Exacerangutan
since it's not YEAH WE KICK ALL YOUR ASSES!!! and more HOLY SHIT WE SURVIVED HOLY SHIT
CChuuni
GOD SAVE THE QUEEN
CChuuni
AND FOR A REALLY FUCKING STUPID WAR
CChuuni
America the Beautiful is AMAZING
Exacerangutan
.......wait is it god save the queen? i thought it was a drinking song...
CChuuni
And I'm not just saying that because I'm literally writing a Nationalist as fuck book to push for the Green New Deal
CChuuni
with chapter titles using the lyrics
CChuuni
yeah hang on I'll link
CChuuni
But mind you (LOL)
Exacerangutan
.......
CChuuni
My issue is STRAIGHT UP fucking Identity politics for once
Exacerangutan
I don't think that's the same melody yo
CChuuni
.............
Exacerangutan
that's the same melody as My Country Tis Of Thee
CChuuni
Oh you're right
CChuuni
I've only had half a cup of rum but I was like
CChuuni
LITERALLY SINGING IT BEFORE I WENT "-- no wait that one came in 3rd in the contest"
CChuuni
WHATEVER
CChuuni
AMERICA THE BEAUTIFUL WAS THE ONLY ONE THAT WAS NOT BASED ON A BRITISH MELODY
Exacerangutan
"To Anacreon in Heaven" is apparently the song used for the SSB
CChuuni
thank you (LOL) I will remember that
CChuuni
I hope :T (again: half a cup of rum, although the migraine does more damage on my memory than drinking so I have never actually blacked out while drinking before)
CChuuni
ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
CChuuni
My Dad's issue is that it's harder to sing
CChuuni
(LOL) WHICH I THINK IS SILLY
Exacerangutan
..........which is apparently the 1700s version of Rebel Yell, I guess
CChuuni
but his family has like amazing vocal chords so before I got sick I had a 5 octave range
CChuuni
....... yo
CChuuni
n e way
CChuuni
NATIONALISM:
CChuuni
until the 1950s saying the pledge of allegiance in schools was NOT A THING
CChuuni
it was only spread so a dude could sell flags
CChuuni
I AM NOT SAYING THAT IS A GOOD THING OR SOMETHING TO BE PROUD OF OR PROOF THAT NATIONALISM IS COOL
CChuuni
because I found that a bit weird and creepy -> AND AGAIN THIS IS ME I wore flag pjs and shirt yesterday and the first bathing suit I sewed (because they did not make them for DDs) was American flag
CChuuni
AND I DID MOTHERFUCKING COLOR GUARD
CChuuni
A "SPORT" ALL ABOUT "I WILL DEFEND THIS FUCKING INANIMATE OBJECT WITH MY LIFE
Exacerangutan
I mean I'm with you on that part, Nationalism is definitely a rhetorical device, and one often used in sales pitches
CChuuni
I mean :T
CChuuni
It can be
CChuuni
But so is
CChuuni
sex, music, opera, fandom, etc.
CChuuni
I don't think things that can be used for great evil should be dismissed outright -- GRANTED I have a tougher time saying "yes music has MURDERED MILLIONS!!!!!!" which you can to an -extent- lay at the feet of nationalism but
CChuuni
BUT I see it more as Identity politics
CChuuni
yeah THERE IS SOME REALLY FUCKED UP SHIT WITH IT
CChuuni
And it doesn't take an extreme genius to use it for harm
CChuuni
(religion too )
CChuuni
buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut
Exacerangutan
...oh I thought you meant you saw it as a form of identity politics
CChuuni
Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater
CChuuni
(thinking)
Exacerangutan
which I mean it sort of is so that would be fair tbh
CChuuni
(thinking)
CChuuni
I MEAN YEAH NO YOU ARE RIGHT
CChuuni
It IS
CChuuni
IT VERY MUCH IS
CChuuni
100% is
CChuuni
yo
Exacerangutan
//CC suddenly no longer nationalist//
CChuuni
that's why I LIKE IT
CChuuni
though because it's
CChuuni
NO
Exacerangutan
//ducks//
CChuuni
because it's not just
CChuuni
"I WAS BORN HERE AND I LOVE IT"
CChuuni
but it's kind of like tribes yanno?
CChuuni
you can CHOOSE it
CChuuni
buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut
CChuuni
you gotta like
CChuuni
walk the walk
CChuuni
BUT BUT BUT BUT
CChuuni
BUT
CChuuni
BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT
CChuuni
I fucking will fucking hate you if you just use it for fucking people over X-(
Exacerangutan
...I mean in a way it's worse because identity politics is "I'm X and that's different from Y and should be acknowledged and respected" more than "I'm X and THAT'S BETTER THAN ANY OTHER THING"
CChuuni
although that's not saying anything because I feel that way about everything oops
Exacerangutan
once you bake in "being like me is the best" I have a hard time seeing the part that doesn't involve being down on everyone else XD
CChuuni
well
CChuuni
I don't think
CChuuni
being like
CChuuni
"I'm French and that's the best!!!!" can be held without defending it for why you believe that
CChuuni
and indeed
CChuuni
I think the defense of it
CChuuni
is the act of patriotism itself
CChuuni
make sense?
CChuuni
LIKE
CChuuni
yeaaaaaaaaaaah obviously I'm not EVER gonna say "BEING IROQUOIS THAN LIKE EVERYTHING ELSE" because I almost just threw up
CChuuni
/eyes meds
CChuuni
anyway
CChuuni
like
Exacerangutan
...I mean sure but then it's like the circular nature of defending sports teams, you can say anything about the thing you like is why it's the best because it's a thing about the thing you like.
CChuuni
*Is better than
CChuuni
yes exactly
Exacerangutan
I like green because it makes me think of spring which is great because things are green!
CChuuni
AND THAT IS HOW I SEE NATIONALISM
CChuuni
CONGRATS
CChuuni
I mean yes
Exacerangutan
........that's nothing to do with it being better that's just you making up an excuse to shit on summer, fall, and winter.
CChuuni
I CAN LIST YOU SPORTS TEAM RIOTS AND WARS AND TRIBALISM AND GENOCIDES
CChuuni
but in the end
Exacerangutan
...I mean that's not going far to support the "nationalism is good" argument. XD
CChuuni
It's not the "I LOVE MY FUCKING TEAM MOOOOOST" that is the problem
CChuuni
Like I do genuinely think
Exacerangutan
IDK, again, any form of Good Nationalism I can think of is indistiguishable from just... doing....... good things
Exacerangutan
...unless you specifically refuse to do good things anywhere else
Exacerangutan
........in which case we're back to the same problem.
CChuuni
if Hitler wasn't also FUCKING FUCKING RACIST and using racism to incite violence, scapegoating, MURDER, and etc. then
CChuuni
well I'VE SAID IT BEFORE AND YOU CAN THROW ME ON A CROSS but I don't think his painting topics were inherently wrong
Exacerangutan
like, "we should sort out or problems at home before we mess with everyone else" is "nationalistic" in some sense but it's also just... shitty to go after everyone else when you can't get your own shit in order
CChuuni
I think wanting to promote Germanic architecture and say "look how beautiful our landscape and architecture is!!!" is something to encourage from EVERY country
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