Seijin CC
[Nationalism] I can't believe I have to say this but... the problem with Hitler isn't that he was Nationalist, Socialist, or Globalist.

It's that he was a racist genocidal psychopath. The End.
Seijin CC
A-Also... he wasn't globalist. That's ... not what it means
Seijin CC
Globalism isn't synonymous with imperialism, colonialism, and conquering.
Seijin CC
/screams into hands/ I'm ok
Seijin CC
Globalism is simply a trade policy that doesn't seek to isolate or be entirely self-sustaining.
Seijin CC
Nationalism isn't even an economic or trading policy so to try to put them on opposite ends is wrong
Seijin CC
Seijin CC
Nationalism is patriotism. If you want to point to a good Republican nationalist TEDDY FUCKING ROOSEVELT created the National Parks as the most Nationalist thing the US has.
Seijin CC
US Olympic teams, the flag, anthems, monuments, <- all nationalist
Seijin CC
I'm pro Nationalism :| But I don't use Napoleon as "SEE HOW STRONG IT IS!?" Yeah. That's because I'm not an idiot who's fond of shooting myself in the foot to say "The problem with Napoleon was just that he wanted to conquer the world I mean. Stay home broski gawd."
Seijin CC
/rubs temples
Seijin CC
Economically Nationalism has traditionally always been a boon to its countries. :|||||||||| No, no, hear me out, this is usually good. It's like South Korea, and Vietnam after their wars, and the US with the national parks etc. And even to a -degree- Japan's economic miracle.
Seijin CC
Because motivating people to follow and express their passions is an economic boon. Crazy huh.
Seijin CC
Again, that doesn't make it have anything to do with globalism.
Seijin CC
Please do not confuse "made in my country" for EITHER Nationalism OR Globalism.
Seijin CC
Buying exclusively made in the USA (if you're American) IS nationalist, because it's pride in not outsourcing WHICH IS anti-globalist (outsourcing is globalism)
Seijin CC
but that is an individual's choice and whether they are a patriotic/Nationalist or seek cheapest goods (globalism in 2019, it will change)
Seijin CC
But just because something is made in the US (or your country) does not make that act individually Nationalist. kopperhed which historical (not within the last 50 years) US President was saying that the US always needed to maintain its own manufacturing in order to stay economically strong and not rely on other countries??
Seijin CC
~Anyway~ That's why BUYING is nationalist, producing isn't, production is always good, but as a company it's also good to sell abroad, indeed, Vietnam makes nearly ALL of its money right now from exports -- https://imgs.plurk.com/Qwu/T4u/JywH6AY0EXb1CeFIPGj78n1riLs_lg.png which helps the whole country (that's GDP per capita)
Seijin CC
companies are inherently globalist in nature though, so I'm not really clear why GOP idiots some people are misconstruing it as some sort of "leftist" economic policy because
Seijin CC
USSR was not globalist at all
Seijin CC
they were extremely anti-globalist and indeed banned imports and didn't have enough to cover their own people much less create exports
Seijin CC
My head hurts. I don't know why I'm even trying to explain all this, it's probably either understood or never will be but it's important.
Seijin CC
Please do not be fooled by either 1) morons 2) deceivers specifically aiming to deceive
Seijin CC
And for the record
Seijin CC
yes Hitler WAS a nationalist
Seijin CC
But just because he painted architecture doesn't mean artists who do patriotic proud architecture instead of GRIM!DARK https://imgs.plurk.com/Qwu/4Oj/hlkshIvlg853bpCTuC4kRSALwBR_lg.jpg are bad???????
Seijin CC
*sorry I meant to type GRIM!DARK Weimar
Seijin CC
although for US it would be "Thomas Cole is Nationalist????? That doesn't mean Andy Warhol being more globalist prove anything?"
TheApostate ™
Are they no longer teaching in history class, the fact that Hitler had millions executed just because of their religious beliefs
TheApostate ™
Incvluding children
TheApostate ™
including*
Seijin CC
No. Some idiot was asked to explain how to avoid getting the nationalist label thrown on them for being anti-globalist.... annnnnnnnnnnnd she instantly went to "Hitler is synonymous with nationalism in the US but he wasn't, he was globalist"
Seijin CC
also the problem with him wasn't the make Germany Great Again but the invading other countries
Seijin CC
that part made everyone go "(unsure) what the actual fuck are you trying to say? Genocide is fine as long as it stays in your own country?" Which I actually DO think she was trying to say but
Seijin CC
I opened a poll
Seijin CC
Seijin CC
Also you know what would be really nationalistic?
Seijin CC
Green New Deal
The Green New Deal
Seijin CC
But nooooooo all the same dumb fucks being like "the news is just taking her out of context!!!" (pro-tip her explanation of context makes it worse) are freeeeeeeeeaking out about how the GND is idk... ~~~impossible~~~ I guess
Exacerangutan
...well
Exacerangutan
my one point of disagreement is that there are two main ways (as I see it) of being nationalistic
Exacerangutan
what I think you're praising is "don't just say your nation is the best, or kick everyone else to keep them down, do things to actively make your nation better so that everyone else sees it as being great"
Exacerangutan
there's also the bucketcrab approach, which honestly is probably more common
JudgeCF
Also his paintings weren't edgy enough
Exacerangutan
which is less about actually making things better, and more about posturing and handing out asspats to your base to draw attention away from problems
Exacerangutan
...but just making things better isn't... in itself fundamentally nationalist anyway, so... I wouldn't... normally call that especially nationalistic without some of the "us versus them" quality. >_>
Seijin CC
no
Seijin CC
well
Seijin CC
I mean there is inherent tribalism in the whole nation
Seijin CC
nation > the world
Seijin CC
vs. globalism which is personal $ via trading with other nations > your own country/tribe
Seijin CC
but nationalism isn't inherently "FUCK THE REST OF THE WORLD"
Seijin CC
see again
Seijin CC
Teddy Fucking Roosevelt
Seijin CC
WHICH YOU WANNA KNOW WHY THE REPUBLICANS DON'T TALK ABOUT HIM?
Seijin CC
IMMA FUCKING TELL YOU WHY
Seijin CC
because the GOP is 100% bought by private interests
Exacerangutan
...I mean I understand the words you're saying, but that's like saying "nepotism isn't bad, because what if someone in your family is actually good at the job you give them" ...well... yes but then that's just... a good thing to do, not especially nepotistic...
Seijin CC
Private interests go directly against nationalism
Seijin CC
No
Seijin CC
That's not what I'm saying at all
Exacerangutan
Seijin CC
Nationalism is good
Seijin CC
And important
Seijin CC
And should just be dismissed
Exacerangutan
by nationalism you mean
Exacerangutan
...doing good things with the word "national" in the name?
Seijin CC
No
Seijin CC
I mean even
Seijin CC
"MY COUNTRY >>>> EVERYONE ELSE"
Exacerangutan
I'm trying to pin down the distinction you're making, since you seem to be saying you mean a totally different, positive thing, and that you don't mean... what I've always heard anyone else mean by Nationalism.
Seijin CC
Yeah it's EASY to take too far
Exacerangutan
...........I mean... >_>
Seijin CC
Okay well I grew up as an army brat and EXTREMELY patriotic and 4th of July was my favorite holiday
Seijin CC
and I think Bastille day for France is awesome and I think
Exacerangutan
...most people don't take "we're better than everyone" to mean "therefore we should demonstrate it by being great"; they usually take it to mean "therefore we can do whatever we want and they'd better get out of our way"
Seijin CC
countries SHOULD celebrate their own cultural history
Seijin CC
Okay but that's not inherently part of nationalism
Seijin CC
That's like
Seijin CC
a sports team that decides
Seijin CC
"NOW WE RAPE THE OTHER TEAM'S CHEERLEADERS"
Seijin CC
Like that's not really team spirit
Exacerangutan
...the trouble with the sports team analogy in general is that sports teams are... sort of fundamentally competitive in a way nations aren't
Seijin CC
Um
Seijin CC
disagree
Seijin CC
nations are only created because of fear of others
Exacerangutan
NATO is mainly about the US proving that it's militarily stronger than Britain, after all
Seijin CC
mind you globalism is about trade and using that trade to maintain peace
Seijin CC
AND THAT IS GREAT
Exacerangutan
all life is struggle and zero-sum competition, etc, etc
Seijin CC
but it can ALSO BE
Seijin CC
oppressing impoverished / third world nations and using them for slave labor in order to create products as cheap as possible for the rich in the "first world" countries to enjoy their wealth
Seijin CC
I don't like the broad dismissal of "Globalism = imperialism/colonialism/ONE WORLD"
Seijin CC
but Nationalism is not just "WE MUST CONQUER THE REST"
Seijin CC
Even manifest destiny
Seijin CC
WHICH
Seijin CC
YO
Seijin CC
INJUN
Exacerangutan
I'm trying to think of examples of Good Nationalism (in the competitive "my nation is better than yours!!!" sense) that are actually fundamentally nationalist. >_>
Seijin CC
I respect as an important progressive maneuver for American history
Exacerangutan
I don't see how national parks is any more fundamentally nationalist than... literally anything the federal government does for public benefit.
Seijin CC
YO
Seijin CC
NATIONAL
Seijin CC
FUCKING
Seijin CC
PARKS
Seijin CC
/SHAKES YOU
Seijin CC
NO
Seijin CC
THey awere -- OKAY HANG ON
Exacerangutan
...yes it has the word "national" in it but you can make a garden in your back yard without going MY YARD IS THE BEST IN THE COUNTY, FIGHT ME!!! X-(
Seijin CC
BECAUSE IT HISTORICALLY WAS THE FIRST OF ITS KIND I WILL MAUL YOU
Seijin CC
Like I slap-fight over whether going to the Moon was nationalist
Seijin CC
I VOTE YES OBVIOUSLY BIG FUCKING SURPRISE
Seijin CC
CC who practically bases her economic principles off of Civ games :V
Seijin CC
no but
Seijin CC
the FLAG ITSELF EVEN
Seijin CC
/SIGH
Seijin CC
SO I HAVE THIS LIKE
Seijin CC
BIG THING
Seijin CC
About the National Anthem
Seijin CC
because my Dad always did (LOL)
Seijin CC
DID YOU KNOW
Seijin CC
We did not HAVE an anthem until 1916?
Seijin CC
AND THEY TOOK A VOTE
Seijin CC
they voted on the anthem
Exacerangutan
but Civ forces unnatural conflict by having zero-sum win conditions
Seijin CC
exactly why I'm fixing it even more (evilsmirk)
Exacerangutan
which has long been one of my biggest problems with Civ as a simulation tbh
Seijin CC
and the reason the star spangled banner won
Seijin CC
is because America the Beautiful is 1) by a lesbian 2) religious, not militaristic
Seijin CC
THAT'S IT
Seijin CC
THAT'S WHY
Seijin CC
I HAVE SO MUCH SALT ABOUT THAT
Seijin CC
I will literally GO OUT OF MY FUCKING WAY to change that
Seijin CC
Just watch
Seijin CC
in our lifetime
Exacerangutan
I mean, as militaristic anthems go, SSB is pretty chill, in fairness
Seijin CC
(eyeroll) BUT IT'S STUPID
Seijin CC
It's to a BRITISH FUCKING SONG
Exacerangutan
since it's not YEAH WE KICK ALL YOUR ASSES!!! and more HOLY SHIT WE SURVIVED HOLY SHIT
Seijin CC
GOD SAVE THE QUEEN
Seijin CC
AND FOR A REALLY FUCKING STUPID WAR
Seijin CC
America the Beautiful is AMAZING
Exacerangutan
.......wait is it god save the queen? i thought it was a drinking song...
Seijin CC
And I'm not just saying that because I'm literally writing a Nationalist as fuck book to push for the Green New Deal
Seijin CC
with chapter titles using the lyrics
Seijin CC
yeah hang on I'll link
Seijin CC
But mind you (LOL)
Exacerangutan
.......
Seijin CC
My issue is STRAIGHT UP fucking Identity politics for once
Exacerangutan
I don't think that's the same melody yo
Seijin CC
.............
Exacerangutan
that's the same melody as My Country Tis Of Thee
Seijin CC
Oh you're right
Seijin CC
I've only had half a cup of rum but I was like
Seijin CC
LITERALLY SINGING IT BEFORE I WENT "-- no wait that one came in 3rd in the contest"
Seijin CC
WHATEVER
Seijin CC
AMERICA THE BEAUTIFUL WAS THE ONLY ONE THAT WAS NOT BASED ON A BRITISH MELODY
Exacerangutan
"To Anacreon in Heaven" is apparently the song used for the SSB
Seijin CC
thank you (LOL) I will remember that
Seijin CC
I hope :T (again: half a cup of rum, although the migraine does more damage on my memory than drinking so I have never actually blacked out while drinking before)
Seijin CC
ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Seijin CC
My Dad's issue is that it's harder to sing
Seijin CC
(LOL) WHICH I THINK IS SILLY
Exacerangutan
..........which is apparently the 1700s version of Rebel Yell, I guess
Seijin CC
but his family has like amazing vocal chords so before I got sick I had a 5 octave range
Seijin CC
....... yo
Seijin CC
n e way
Seijin CC
NATIONALISM:
Seijin CC
until the 1950s saying the pledge of allegiance in schools was NOT A THING
Seijin CC
it was only spread so a dude could sell flags
Seijin CC
I AM NOT SAYING THAT IS A GOOD THING OR SOMETHING TO BE PROUD OF OR PROOF THAT NATIONALISM IS COOL
Seijin CC
because I found that a bit weird and creepy -> AND AGAIN THIS IS ME I wore flag pjs and shirt yesterday and the first bathing suit I sewed (because they did not make them for DDs) was American flag
Seijin CC
AND I DID MOTHERFUCKING COLOR GUARD
Seijin CC
A "SPORT" ALL ABOUT "I WILL DEFEND THIS FUCKING INANIMATE OBJECT WITH MY LIFE
Exacerangutan
I mean I'm with you on that part, Nationalism is definitely a rhetorical device, and one often used in sales pitches
Seijin CC
I mean :T
Seijin CC
It can be
Seijin CC
But so is
Seijin CC
sex, music, opera, fandom, etc.
Seijin CC
I don't think things that can be used for great evil should be dismissed outright -- GRANTED I have a tougher time saying "yes music has MURDERED MILLIONS!!!!!!" which you can to an -extent- lay at the feet of nationalism but
Seijin CC
BUT I see it more as Identity politics
Seijin CC
yeah THERE IS SOME REALLY FUCKED UP SHIT WITH IT
Seijin CC
And it doesn't take an extreme genius to use it for harm
Seijin CC
(religion too )
Seijin CC
buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut
Exacerangutan
...oh I thought you meant you saw it as a form of identity politics
Seijin CC
Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater
Seijin CC
(thinking)
Exacerangutan
which I mean it sort of is so that would be fair tbh
Seijin CC
(thinking)
Seijin CC
I MEAN YEAH NO YOU ARE RIGHT
Seijin CC
It IS
Seijin CC
IT VERY MUCH IS
Seijin CC
100% is
Seijin CC
yo
Exacerangutan
//CC suddenly no longer nationalist//
Seijin CC
that's why I LIKE IT
Seijin CC
though because it's
Seijin CC
NO
Exacerangutan
//ducks//
Seijin CC
because it's not just
Seijin CC
"I WAS BORN HERE AND I LOVE IT"
Seijin CC
but it's kind of like tribes yanno?
Seijin CC
you can CHOOSE it
Seijin CC
buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut
Seijin CC
you gotta like
Seijin CC
walk the walk
Seijin CC
BUT BUT BUT BUT
Seijin CC
BUT
Seijin CC
BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT
Seijin CC
I fucking will fucking hate you if you just use it for fucking people over X-(
Exacerangutan
...I mean in a way it's worse because identity politics is "I'm X and that's different from Y and should be acknowledged and respected" more than "I'm X and THAT'S BETTER THAN ANY OTHER THING"
Seijin CC
although that's not saying anything because I feel that way about everything oops
Exacerangutan
once you bake in "being like me is the best" I have a hard time seeing the part that doesn't involve being down on everyone else XD
Seijin CC
well
Seijin CC
I don't think
Seijin CC
being like
Seijin CC
"I'm French and that's the best!!!!" can be held without defending it for why you believe that
Seijin CC
and indeed
Seijin CC
I think the defense of it
Seijin CC
is the act of patriotism itself
Seijin CC
make sense?
Seijin CC
LIKE
Seijin CC
yeaaaaaaaaaaah obviously I'm not EVER gonna say "BEING IROQUOIS THAN LIKE EVERYTHING ELSE" because I almost just threw up
Seijin CC
/eyes meds
Seijin CC
anyway
Seijin CC
like
Exacerangutan
...I mean sure but then it's like the circular nature of defending sports teams, you can say anything about the thing you like is why it's the best because it's a thing about the thing you like.
Seijin CC
*Is better than
Seijin CC
yes exactly
Exacerangutan
I like green because it makes me think of spring which is great because things are green!
Seijin CC
AND THAT IS HOW I SEE NATIONALISM
Seijin CC
CONGRATS
Seijin CC
I mean yes
Exacerangutan
........that's nothing to do with it being better that's just you making up an excuse to shit on summer, fall, and winter.
Seijin CC
I CAN LIST YOU SPORTS TEAM RIOTS AND WARS AND TRIBALISM AND GENOCIDES
Seijin CC
but in the end
Exacerangutan
...I mean that's not going far to support the "nationalism is good" argument. XD
Seijin CC
It's not the "I LOVE MY FUCKING TEAM MOOOOOST" that is the problem
Seijin CC
Like I do genuinely think
Exacerangutan
IDK, again, any form of Good Nationalism I can think of is indistiguishable from just... doing....... good things
Exacerangutan
...unless you specifically refuse to do good things anywhere else
Exacerangutan
........in which case we're back to the same problem.
Seijin CC
if Hitler wasn't also FUCKING FUCKING RACIST and using racism to incite violence, scapegoating, MURDER, and etc. then
Seijin CC
well I'VE SAID IT BEFORE AND YOU CAN THROW ME ON A CROSS but I don't think his painting topics were inherently wrong
Exacerangutan
like, "we should sort out or problems at home before we mess with everyone else" is "nationalistic" in some sense but it's also just... shitty to go after everyone else when you can't get your own shit in order
Seijin CC
I think wanting to promote Germanic architecture and say "look how beautiful our landscape and architecture is!!!" is something to encourage from EVERY country
載入新的回覆