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[Econ 1.05] The power of the people -> Democratic Capitalism.
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Wow it's been a year since the last one because I struggled so hard to try to refine this and every time I debated it I couldn't put it to words ayyyy okay let's go
@silverwolfcc - [Econ] 1.04 spread this around and s...
<- where we left off
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Forewarning: DO ASK QUESTIONS. The purpose of these is to help me figure out how to explain it to even people without economic backgrounds, BUT THAT SAID: I have no intention to re-prove economics that OTHERS ALREADY PROVED. Those books exist, they're not mine, I'm not interested in arguing/defending them.
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Last plurk was to try to help people understand that the US $ is backed by its faith from the people, rather than the gold standard. -> I think I did a terrible job of that so I'm going to try to be clearer and feel free to ask about it here because I need to refine my own explanation still but (LOL)
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TL;DR, The purpose of a gold standard is (as I said) as with physical money (have spoken about elsewhere, but will re-explain upon request) to help remind people not to run out.
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AKA: NOT RUNNING ON CREDIT
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One of the major defining principles of MMT is not only do we indeed run on credit as a fiscal sovereignty that prints our own money
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but without doing so, we would be creating ceilings that would vastly inhibit any attempts at potential
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=> Expanding on that. One of the biggest problems in true communism (not just Marxist communism, but other forms as they have been historically attempted whether large or small) is it accidentally BY DESIGN inhibits individuals for achieving excellence -> going back to the risk/reward ratios, it encourages neither and only encourages "bare minimum" if that
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In creating things like Debt Ceilings and tying that which is a unit of measurement not meant to be applied to only physical units: ie "saying inches can only measure people from now on" you inhibit growth of ALL.
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That's a hard concept to get so do not worry, let me expand on it
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Money is not a physical resource
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it is a measurement of numbers. We give it physical existence, historically trying to use something that would otherwise only be viewed as shiny bling/status. SUCH AS: Native American tribes and wampum, most of the world and gold.
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Investments do not have physical existence.
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They are not inherently able to be used on their own.
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they are notches on a bedpost, tally marks on a wall
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yet these marks have value as given BY THE PEOPLE and enforced by the government
Exacerangutan
the way I think of the gold standard and similar historical standards was trying to tie the arbitrary (not the best word but I'll run with it) value of currency to the intrinsic value of scarce resources
Exacerangutan
which doesn't mean "the value is intrinsic" but value is a convolution of factors, and scarcity is an at least quasi-intrinsic factor
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-> The US $ bond went from AAA+ down because of the threat to default, again, I could talk a lot about that, but other books do it better, but the reason for this and why I bring it up is that they threatened not to continue paying their bills, so basically their credit rating went down
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^ Yes but that in itself is BECAUSE OF the rest
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you don't have any NEED to tie money to anything
Exacerangutan
yeah
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Money is a measurement
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And last plurk was the discussion of why it's dumb
Exacerangutan
you credit gets hit when confidence that you'll pay your debts drops, not (or at least not specifically) when your debts increase
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so unless you're confused about that and need to ask a question
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The backing of the US Dollar is therefore not in physical scarcity
Exacerangutan
I'm not just saying things at random I'm tossing out analogies to test if I'm on the same page
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It is not valuable because it is rare
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I used "rare pepe memes" last plurk for lulz and because I knew it would work
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yes Paul you're keeping up ^_^ Good job <3 also on both of us. because I worry I lose everyone (LOL)
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US $ has inherent value based on its versatility and wherein it will be accepted within the entire country for "anything."
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DITTO gold back when
Exacerangutan
hmm
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Not so much "but gold is rare" as "everyone accepts it as approximate value"
Exacerangutan
I mean it also hinges in general on the solvency of the US treasury and the presumptive ability of the US to generate growth, right?
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Please call anyone who says we should be on a gold standard hilariously living in the past and that the 1600s called and said they should catch up because even Columbus knew that money is so much more than gold
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It ACTIVELY INHIBITS ^ See above
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There are $13 TRILLION in the US stock exchange right now.
there is only about $10 Trillion printed.
Exacerangutan
Which... I can see that the gold standard would make the value of the dollar more secure, but it makes sense that it would be both less flexible, and less able to grow freely
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We have about $21.4 Trillion in Debt
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It would not make it more secure
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okay
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when the US dollar was on the gold standard
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it was because the US was a fledgling new nation competing with ANCIENT world superpowers and no one trusted it to necessarily last
Exacerangutan
I'm sitting here making plasma physics analogies that would mean nothing to anyone else
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so you could in theory take ANY DOLLAR to a bank and ask for that bill worth of gold
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THERE IS NO SANE REASON TO DO THAT ANYMORE
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1) you have to assume that America will DIE
Exacerangutan
I'm thinking of the comparison between tokamaks and stellarators, but that would probably just make things more confusing XD
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I mean the entire fucking country going into revolt, not JUST Civil War but SO BADLY it carves up and DIES and is eaten up by others
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2) you have to then want the gold for that OH SO COMPLICATED war because gold will survive the dollar WHICH IS ALSO IN ITSELF NOT TRUE BECAUSE EVEN IF WE HIT THAT BREAKING POINT I GUARAN-FUCKING-TEE YOU NO ONE IN THE US WILL BE ACCEPTING GOLD > PAPER DOLLARS
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3) it would force the US to continue hoarding gold like a crackpot to make Scrooge McDuck's obsession pale and insignificant
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4) Most of the US money is not even physically printed in ANY FORM WHATSOEVER
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-> Let's take a small pause on that
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There are those (as I said last plurk) that think the gold standard is to curb US gov. spending
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this is not true.
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Nor would it do so
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Nor does that matter see ALL previous plurks
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BUT WRT: HYPERINFLATION
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yes, by all means this is a thing that many MMT fail to address because they always say "You can cut taxes and spend more"
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WHICH IS TRUE BUT
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Now for the real point of this particular plurk 1.05 ->
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The value of the $ is AS WITH THE VALUE OF ALL THINGS (see first plurk)
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what you can get for it
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I've mentioned how you don't really want your currency to be rare (see last plurk especially) and indeed
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hoarding and deflation are DISASTROUS for a country and all macro-economically! INDEED these led to: the great Depression, the great Recession, and Multiple MULTIPLE crashes
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Let's go back to communism. My favorite.
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In the case of the American Pilgrims, 200 years before Karl Marx
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They tried communism
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It lasted 2 years and they were all about to die of starvation and extreme utter failure
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Because they had no need to bother doing anything and could expect others to do it for them and no, societal and religious pressure alone was not enough motivation because who the fuck wants to Garden in MA I mean have you seen the weather? Also they were trying weird shit like pumpkin ale instead of pumpkin pie so yeah. You're gonna fucking fail as a
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society at that point
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They were saved because their governor was basically like "OH FFS D:<" and started offering land in exchange for bringing in extra food. Suddenly everyone was like "oh snap Imma have the most!! CATCH YOU LATER LOSERS!!!" and was super motivated and productive.
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This brings us up to Jeff Bezos
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REGULAR capitalism is based on the premise of investment
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THIS IS LITERALLY WHAT THE US NATIONAL DEBT IS
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IT IS A LITERAL FUCKING INVESTMENT
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YOU give them money and say "because I know you'll give me MORE money in the future <3"
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The value of the Dollar is that it's a fancy tally mark :|
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but it's a GOOD tally mark. It can be used to denote 17 hours of work or the value of a potato or anything else
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Putting it on the gold standard is not just saying "okay we are standardizing the price in comparison to gold" because that's inapplicable
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At this point there are 70 different ways gold itself is priced
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there's melting shops, investment shops, those who ACTUALLY USE IT, jewelers, hoarders (you will find hoarders of everything, especially if no one slaps their hands to say "STOP IT")
Exacerangutan
well yeah that gets into the intrinsic scarcity-value being only one component of the actual value :X
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So it's physically unreasonable to say "Yes my dollar buys me an insignificant unquantifiable dust speck of gold /GLEAM"
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not just because of the resource value that would be necessary in that
Exacerangutan
//points to Goldfinger//
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but it hasn't been physically applicable for years
Exacerangutan
also scarcity is an increasingly unclear parameter
Exacerangutan
//also points to diamonds//
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Likewise you could indeed make it nuclear reactive which honest to god I hope they do if the Gov. reaches a point where the dollar is no longer worthwhile because we went insane (it will not reach that, period. People always hyperventilate, and it's just a basic instinct like hoarding, stop it)
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BACK TO THE POINT OF INVESTMENT
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All those tally marks all your hard work are not for naught -> or so is the American dream of not being serfs
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HOWEVER and I forget if I talked about this before, it DOES need its own plurk so NEXT ONE: Investment vs. taxation
-> When you reach a point of exorbitant amounts of tally marks
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it DOES actually affect the value of all the other tally marks out in the economy
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Because they're in existence, and you're not doing shit with them
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I def. think I discussed this
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Idk if it's in my chapter plurks though but I remember trying to explain it
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ANYWAY
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You actually make OTHER tally marks worth LESS by not re-circulating and investing (Def. mentioned last plurk, see also: rare Pepe memes)
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This is becaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaause (drumroll please)
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the tally marks represent what other goods, work, services, and TIME people have exchanged for them
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NOW IN INVESTING:
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You have what's called "seed money" or "seed capital." And it's just like it sounds. In farming you set aside a certain amount of crop annually for see next cycle, and in economics, seed money is what lets you start up your business.
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TL;DR basic economics 101 will explain as needed, but would rather not have to ->
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this money comes from investors. ie: the first guy who ever was like "YEAH BITCOIN SOUNDS LIKE A GOOD IDEA" is a billionaire now.
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see also: previous plurk on risk vs. reward
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okay! That is the entire principle behind capitalism
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GETTING REWARDED FOR YOUR INVESTMENTS
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awesome, right?
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as I said, there's $13 Trillion invested in the Stock market, yet only $10 Trillion in print/circulation/banks/physical existence
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because money ESPECIALLY INVESTMENT was never actually about physical presence
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It's LITERALLY a denotation of trade
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so beans for carrots
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it's shorthand so you farmers can focus on growing instead of haggling and let people who ONLY WANT TO HAGGLE BECAUSE THAT IS THEIR JOY AND PASSION AND THEY'RE KIND OF CRAZY LIKE THAT -> do just that and nothing else
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Investments aren't kept as physical money, they're bought up as physical desks, office supplies, buildings, RENT, etc. all that they need to do their business. (which gets hilarious and wonky for thinks like yanno tech companies and websites and basically then is more like computers or salaries etc.)
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The power of the Dollar is the PEOPLE. Literally. It's the country. It's the people CREATING production and using it.
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We do not have a Democratic Capitalism but we could. In a snap. Literally people just have to will it. I know that sounds unbelievable but it's 100% true.
Exacerangutan
hrgh blrgh liberal feelgood etc nice sounding things must be wrong yadda yadda
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/pet!
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Right now we exist in a state of capitalist chaos --> Marx argued such as is the nature of all Capitalism and it's TRUE AND ONLY FORM but No, this is very incorrect.
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In capitalist chaos, opportunists and the corrupt can finagle the entire market to work for them at the cost of others. this is also 100% how Marxist communism works so by no means will I ever say "that's better."
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The dollar's value is in its perpetuated existence
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If ALL AMERICAN CITIZENS decide "fuck the dollar, let's use Pepe memes"
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and did it BY CHOICE not forcing anyone else to submit to Pepe's will
Exacerangutan
I feel like we need a better way of expressing Marxist vs. Things Marx Said
Exacerangutan
like Hellenic vs. Hellenistic
Exacerangutan
Marxist vs. Marxistic?
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(because by Law, you must accept the American dollar, but if you all just agreed at once "yes Pepe is fine" and no one even bothered paying with $ because Pepe is funnier)
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Irdgaf
Exacerangutan
XD
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The US dollar would actually STILL have value because of all the investment in it!!
Wonderful Leaf
BRB, going through the first four because I am super interested in this
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In 10, 15, and 25 years, people would be like "oh I have dollars again (thinking) might as well USE IT"
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Now that said, I'm certain most of the holdings of US bonds/treasury is oligarchs and not someone say, living on SSI (iirc: you even can't have things like bonds / stocks or at least they count against you because it means you're not basically starving)
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HOWEVER: even the "lowest/poorest" are investors of the US $ because they circulate and build up the economy just by existing
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They create market to sell to
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they are literally part of the product and if you're a Marxist you're probably going "EW GROSS TBQH!!!" yes
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we do not currently invest directly in people. We do it very vaguely and indirectly with so much chaos that it's very easy to manipulate. BUT WE COULD. WE COULD DO IT RIGHT NOW.
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There's a lot of argument about whether it's possible to do it through the stock market as it exists in its current corrupted form wherein it's highly manipulated and not primarily used for seed money at all but mostly for racehorse gambling by the second using computers and algorithms and artificially conning one another
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and tbfh? IDGAF.
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I'mma suggest we just bypass all that shit because we literally fucking can and it's so much god damn easier and better and gives the stock market incentives to restructure on its own
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You don't need the stock market to invest
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Just as you don't need to invest to partake in capitalism, you just have to exist
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Democractic Capitalism is literally using the people's choice to empower the people's will from the dollar up. What do you want to be valuable, invested, empower, see more of, grow, flourish, DO, how?
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make that $ and Democracy work for you
Mags
ok is Democratic Capitalism covered somewhere? Because I have no idea what that means in a real, economic sense.
Mags
it sounds like political buzzwords that mean nothing. Freedom Fries. Capitalism, but better because Democracy!
Mags
So if you wouldn't mind pointing the idiot to the village well, I'd appreciate it XD
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No
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I am naming my Capitalism 2.0 chapter that
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and ideally just explained it in the plurk
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Because it's "Capitalism enacted by choice via voting"
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so
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name on tin
Mags
ahhhhh okay.
Mags
so it's not an actual thing yet
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;-)
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