CChuuni
[Econ 1.05] The power of the people -> Democratic Capitalism.
CChuuni
Wow it's been a year since the last one because I struggled so hard to try to refine this and every time I debated it I couldn't put it to words ayyyy okay let's go
@silverwolfcc - [Econ] 1.04 spread this around and s...
<- where we left off
CChuuni
Forewarning: DO ASK QUESTIONS. The purpose of these is to help me figure out how to explain it to even people without economic backgrounds, BUT THAT SAID: I have no intention to re-prove economics that OTHERS ALREADY PROVED. Those books exist, they're not mine, I'm not interested in arguing/defending them.
CChuuni
Last plurk was to try to help people understand that the US $ is backed by its faith from the people, rather than the gold standard. -> I think I did a terrible job of that so I'm going to try to be clearer and feel free to ask about it here because I need to refine my own explanation still but (LOL)
CChuuni
TL;DR, The purpose of a gold standard is (as I said) as with physical money (have spoken about elsewhere, but will re-explain upon request) to help remind people not to run out.
CChuuni
AKA: NOT RUNNING ON CREDIT
CChuuni
One of the major defining principles of MMT is not only do we indeed run on credit as a fiscal sovereignty that prints our own money
CChuuni
but without doing so, we would be creating ceilings that would vastly inhibit any attempts at potential
CChuuni
=> Expanding on that. One of the biggest problems in true communism (not just Marxist communism, but other forms as they have been historically attempted whether large or small) is it accidentally BY DESIGN inhibits individuals for achieving excellence -> going back to the risk/reward ratios, it encourages neither and only encourages "bare minimum" if that
CChuuni
In creating things like Debt Ceilings and tying that which is a unit of measurement not meant to be applied to only physical units: ie "saying inches can only measure people from now on" you inhibit growth of ALL.
CChuuni
That's a hard concept to get so do not worry, let me expand on it
CChuuni
Money is not a physical resource
CChuuni
it is a measurement of numbers. We give it physical existence, historically trying to use something that would otherwise only be viewed as shiny bling/status. SUCH AS: Native American tribes and wampum, most of the world and gold.
CChuuni
Investments do not have physical existence.
CChuuni
They are not inherently able to be used on their own.
CChuuni
they are notches on a bedpost, tally marks on a wall
CChuuni
yet these marks have value as given BY THE PEOPLE and enforced by the government
Exacerangutan
the way I think of the gold standard and similar historical standards was trying to tie the arbitrary (not the best word but I'll run with it) value of currency to the intrinsic value of scarce resources
Exacerangutan
which doesn't mean "the value is intrinsic" but value is a convolution of factors, and scarcity is an at least quasi-intrinsic factor
CChuuni
-> The US $ bond went from AAA+ down because of the threat to default, again, I could talk a lot about that, but other books do it better, but the reason for this and why I bring it up is that they threatened not to continue paying their bills, so basically their credit rating went down
CChuuni
^ Yes but that in itself is BECAUSE OF the rest
CChuuni
you don't have any NEED to tie money to anything
Exacerangutan
yeah
CChuuni
Money is a measurement
CChuuni
And last plurk was the discussion of why it's dumb
Exacerangutan
you credit gets hit when confidence that you'll pay your debts drops, not (or at least not specifically) when your debts increase
CChuuni
so unless you're confused about that and need to ask a question
CChuuni
The backing of the US Dollar is therefore not in physical scarcity
Exacerangutan
I'm not just saying things at random I'm tossing out analogies to test if I'm on the same page
CChuuni
It is not valuable because it is rare
CChuuni
I used "rare pepe memes" last plurk for lulz and because I knew it would work
CChuuni
yes Paul you're keeping up ^_^ Good job <3 also on both of us. because I worry I lose everyone (LOL)
CChuuni
US $ has inherent value based on its versatility and wherein it will be accepted within the entire country for "anything."
CChuuni
DITTO gold back when
Exacerangutan
hmm
CChuuni
Not so much "but gold is rare" as "everyone accepts it as approximate value"
Exacerangutan
I mean it also hinges in general on the solvency of the US treasury and the presumptive ability of the US to generate growth, right?
CChuuni
Please call anyone who says we should be on a gold standard hilariously living in the past and that the 1600s called and said they should catch up because even Columbus knew that money is so much more than gold
CChuuni
It ACTIVELY INHIBITS ^ See above
CChuuni
There are $13 TRILLION in the US stock exchange right now.
there is only about $10 Trillion printed.
Exacerangutan
Which... I can see that the gold standard would make the value of the dollar more secure, but it makes sense that it would be both less flexible, and less able to grow freely
CChuuni
We have about $21.4 Trillion in Debt
CChuuni
It would not make it more secure
CChuuni
okay
CChuuni
when the US dollar was on the gold standard
CChuuni
it was because the US was a fledgling new nation competing with ANCIENT world superpowers and no one trusted it to necessarily last
Exacerangutan
I'm sitting here making plasma physics analogies that would mean nothing to anyone else
CChuuni
so you could in theory take ANY DOLLAR to a bank and ask for that bill worth of gold
CChuuni
THERE IS NO SANE REASON TO DO THAT ANYMORE
CChuuni
1) you have to assume that America will DIE
Exacerangutan
I'm thinking of the comparison between tokamaks and stellarators, but that would probably just make things more confusing XD
CChuuni
I mean the entire fucking country going into revolt, not JUST Civil War but SO BADLY it carves up and DIES and is eaten up by others
CChuuni
2) you have to then want the gold for that OH SO COMPLICATED war because gold will survive the dollar WHICH IS ALSO IN ITSELF NOT TRUE BECAUSE EVEN IF WE HIT THAT BREAKING POINT I GUARAN-FUCKING-TEE YOU NO ONE IN THE US WILL BE ACCEPTING GOLD > PAPER DOLLARS
CChuuni
3) it would force the US to continue hoarding gold like a crackpot to make Scrooge McDuck's obsession pale and insignificant
CChuuni
4) Most of the US money is not even physically printed in ANY FORM WHATSOEVER
CChuuni
-> Let's take a small pause on that
CChuuni
There are those (as I said last plurk) that think the gold standard is to curb US gov. spending
CChuuni
this is not true.
CChuuni
Nor would it do so
CChuuni
Nor does that matter see ALL previous plurks
CChuuni
BUT WRT: HYPERINFLATION
CChuuni
yes, by all means this is a thing that many MMT fail to address because they always say "You can cut taxes and spend more"
CChuuni
WHICH IS TRUE BUT
CChuuni
Now for the real point of this particular plurk 1.05 ->
CChuuni
The value of the $ is AS WITH THE VALUE OF ALL THINGS (see first plurk)
CChuuni
what you can get for it
CChuuni
I've mentioned how you don't really want your currency to be rare (see last plurk especially) and indeed
CChuuni
hoarding and deflation are DISASTROUS for a country and all macro-economically! INDEED these led to: the great Depression, the great Recession, and Multiple MULTIPLE crashes
CChuuni
Let's go back to communism. My favorite.
CChuuni
In the case of the American Pilgrims, 200 years before Karl Marx
CChuuni
They tried communism
CChuuni
It lasted 2 years and they were all about to die of starvation and extreme utter failure
CChuuni
Because they had no need to bother doing anything and could expect others to do it for them and no, societal and religious pressure alone was not enough motivation because who the fuck wants to Garden in MA I mean have you seen the weather? Also they were trying weird shit like pumpkin ale instead of pumpkin pie so yeah. You're gonna fucking fail as a
CChuuni
society at that point
CChuuni
They were saved because their governor was basically like "OH FFS D:<" and started offering land in exchange for bringing in extra food. Suddenly everyone was like "oh snap Imma have the most!! CATCH YOU LATER LOSERS!!!" and was super motivated and productive.
CChuuni
This brings us up to Jeff Bezos
CChuuni
REGULAR capitalism is based on the premise of investment
CChuuni
THIS IS LITERALLY WHAT THE US NATIONAL DEBT IS
CChuuni
IT IS A LITERAL FUCKING INVESTMENT
CChuuni
YOU give them money and say "because I know you'll give me MORE money in the future <3"
CChuuni
The value of the Dollar is that it's a fancy tally mark :|
CChuuni
but it's a GOOD tally mark. It can be used to denote 17 hours of work or the value of a potato or anything else
CChuuni
Putting it on the gold standard is not just saying "okay we are standardizing the price in comparison to gold" because that's inapplicable
CChuuni
At this point there are 70 different ways gold itself is priced
CChuuni
there's melting shops, investment shops, those who ACTUALLY USE IT, jewelers, hoarders (you will find hoarders of everything, especially if no one slaps their hands to say "STOP IT")
Exacerangutan
well yeah that gets into the intrinsic scarcity-value being only one component of the actual value :X
CChuuni
So it's physically unreasonable to say "Yes my dollar buys me an insignificant unquantifiable dust speck of gold /GLEAM"
CChuuni
not just because of the resource value that would be necessary in that
Exacerangutan
//points to Goldfinger//
CChuuni
but it hasn't been physically applicable for years
Exacerangutan
also scarcity is an increasingly unclear parameter
Exacerangutan
//also points to diamonds//
CChuuni
Likewise you could indeed make it nuclear reactive which honest to god I hope they do if the Gov. reaches a point where the dollar is no longer worthwhile because we went insane (it will not reach that, period. People always hyperventilate, and it's just a basic instinct like hoarding, stop it)
CChuuni
BACK TO THE POINT OF INVESTMENT
CChuuni
All those tally marks all your hard work are not for naught -> or so is the American dream of not being serfs
CChuuni
HOWEVER and I forget if I talked about this before, it DOES need its own plurk so NEXT ONE: Investment vs. taxation
-> When you reach a point of exorbitant amounts of tally marks
CChuuni
it DOES actually affect the value of all the other tally marks out in the economy
CChuuni
Because they're in existence, and you're not doing shit with them
CChuuni
I def. think I discussed this
CChuuni
Idk if it's in my chapter plurks though but I remember trying to explain it
CChuuni
ANYWAY
CChuuni
You actually make OTHER tally marks worth LESS by not re-circulating and investing (Def. mentioned last plurk, see also: rare Pepe memes)
CChuuni
This is becaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaause (drumroll please)
CChuuni
the tally marks represent what other goods, work, services, and TIME people have exchanged for them
CChuuni
NOW IN INVESTING:
CChuuni
You have what's called "seed money" or "seed capital." And it's just like it sounds. In farming you set aside a certain amount of crop annually for see next cycle, and in economics, seed money is what lets you start up your business.
CChuuni
TL;DR basic economics 101 will explain as needed, but would rather not have to ->
CChuuni
this money comes from investors. ie: the first guy who ever was like "YEAH BITCOIN SOUNDS LIKE A GOOD IDEA" is a billionaire now.
CChuuni
see also: previous plurk on risk vs. reward
CChuuni
okay! That is the entire principle behind capitalism
CChuuni
GETTING REWARDED FOR YOUR INVESTMENTS
CChuuni
awesome, right?
CChuuni
as I said, there's $13 Trillion invested in the Stock market, yet only $10 Trillion in print/circulation/banks/physical existence
CChuuni
because money ESPECIALLY INVESTMENT was never actually about physical presence
CChuuni
It's LITERALLY a denotation of trade
CChuuni
so beans for carrots
CChuuni
it's shorthand so you farmers can focus on growing instead of haggling and let people who ONLY WANT TO HAGGLE BECAUSE THAT IS THEIR JOY AND PASSION AND THEY'RE KIND OF CRAZY LIKE THAT -> do just that and nothing else
CChuuni
Investments aren't kept as physical money, they're bought up as physical desks, office supplies, buildings, RENT, etc. all that they need to do their business. (which gets hilarious and wonky for thinks like yanno tech companies and websites and basically then is more like computers or salaries etc.)
CChuuni
The power of the Dollar is the PEOPLE. Literally. It's the country. It's the people CREATING production and using it.
CChuuni
We do not have a Democratic Capitalism but we could. In a snap. Literally people just have to will it. I know that sounds unbelievable but it's 100% true.
Exacerangutan
hrgh blrgh liberal feelgood etc nice sounding things must be wrong yadda yadda
CChuuni
/pet!
CChuuni
Right now we exist in a state of capitalist chaos --> Marx argued such as is the nature of all Capitalism and it's TRUE AND ONLY FORM but No, this is very incorrect.
CChuuni
In capitalist chaos, opportunists and the corrupt can finagle the entire market to work for them at the cost of others. this is also 100% how Marxist communism works so by no means will I ever say "that's better."
CChuuni
The dollar's value is in its perpetuated existence
CChuuni
If ALL AMERICAN CITIZENS decide "fuck the dollar, let's use Pepe memes"
CChuuni
and did it BY CHOICE not forcing anyone else to submit to Pepe's will
Exacerangutan
I feel like we need a better way of expressing Marxist vs. Things Marx Said
Exacerangutan
like Hellenic vs. Hellenistic
Exacerangutan
Marxist vs. Marxistic?
CChuuni
(because by Law, you must accept the American dollar, but if you all just agreed at once "yes Pepe is fine" and no one even bothered paying with $ because Pepe is funnier)
CChuuni
Irdgaf
Exacerangutan
XD
CChuuni
The US dollar would actually STILL have value because of all the investment in it!!
Wonderful Leaf
BRB, going through the first four because I am super interested in this
CChuuni
In 10, 15, and 25 years, people would be like "oh I have dollars again (thinking) might as well USE IT"
CChuuni
Now that said, I'm certain most of the holdings of US bonds/treasury is oligarchs and not someone say, living on SSI (iirc: you even can't have things like bonds / stocks or at least they count against you because it means you're not basically starving)
CChuuni
HOWEVER: even the "lowest/poorest" are investors of the US $ because they circulate and build up the economy just by existing
CChuuni
They create market to sell to
CChuuni
they are literally part of the product and if you're a Marxist you're probably going "EW GROSS TBQH!!!" yes
CChuuni
we do not currently invest directly in people. We do it very vaguely and indirectly with so much chaos that it's very easy to manipulate. BUT WE COULD. WE COULD DO IT RIGHT NOW.
CChuuni
There's a lot of argument about whether it's possible to do it through the stock market as it exists in its current corrupted form wherein it's highly manipulated and not primarily used for seed money at all but mostly for racehorse gambling by the second using computers and algorithms and artificially conning one another
CChuuni
and tbfh? IDGAF.
CChuuni
I'mma suggest we just bypass all that shit because we literally fucking can and it's so much god damn easier and better and gives the stock market incentives to restructure on its own
CChuuni
You don't need the stock market to invest
CChuuni
Just as you don't need to invest to partake in capitalism, you just have to exist
CChuuni
Democractic Capitalism is literally using the people's choice to empower the people's will from the dollar up. What do you want to be valuable, invested, empower, see more of, grow, flourish, DO, how?
CChuuni
make that $ and Democracy work for you
Mags
ok is Democratic Capitalism covered somewhere? Because I have no idea what that means in a real, economic sense.
Mags
it sounds like political buzzwords that mean nothing. Freedom Fries. Capitalism, but better because Democracy!
Mags
So if you wouldn't mind pointing the idiot to the village well, I'd appreciate it XD
CChuuni
No
CChuuni
I am naming my Capitalism 2.0 chapter that
CChuuni
and ideally just explained it in the plurk
CChuuni
Because it's "Capitalism enacted by choice via voting"
CChuuni
so
CChuuni
name on tin
Mags
ahhhhh okay.
Mags
so it's not an actual thing yet
CChuuni
;-)
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