Is there anything left that can get ruined?
Tillie
"The Parkland shooting may just ruin the GOP" ... Is there anything left that can get ruined?
Is there anything left that can get ruined?
Tillie
source
Chiyo
IDK there's already been plenty of really horrid and immoral stuff and they're still going strong.
Chiyo
Not saying Dems or anyone else are perfect angels. Things sure are crazy right now.
☠DjinniGenie
I have been frightened, depressed, and grieving since Trump won the election, but now I am starting to think these kids are going to help us change. And it is exciting.
Tillie
☠DjinniGenie
: 
☠DjinniGenie
LludShingles
One can only hope ... and vote. But it doesn't look good.
KitchenBuddy
I'm keeping my fingers crossed 
Suze
Yeah, I'm so proud of those kids and hope it helps. Even GOP politicians seem to be willing to do something. Even Florida governor Rick Scott (who I detest) offered a plan to raise the purchase age, ban bump stocks, and didn't call for arming teachers (yet), but I don't trust him one bit. Most sane people are completely against arming teachers.
Natalie 🌈
Why is this going to ruin the GOP? The last election that got them into power was rigged and they’re still there. This, as disgusting and immensely tragic as it is, won’t scratch them
Nalates
Natalie - Are talking about Hillary & DNC rigging the election to eliminate Bernie in the preliminaries?
Nalates
As to change... the Left is stuck on limiting access to guns in violation of the second amendment. So, to make a change the 2nd amend has to be changed. Convince Congress to move, then the states to ratify the change. We still have not gotten Equal Rights ratified...
Tillie
Not sure if a change is needed... "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms" ...
Tillie
that's not saying that it's meant for non-adults.
Tillie
So allow weapons from 21+ and we're a first step in.
Tillie
Oh, and yes, it doesn't say anything about ammunition either. Regulate THEM, too.
Tillie
Hm, and it doesn't say anything about the type of Arms either. So if it's meant to "defend yourself" etc then you surely need no full-auto weapons.
Tillie
I guess if some lawyers and law makers sat together, they could find some solutions without touching the amendments at all.
Tillie
Oh and if this is really the actual text: "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
Tillie
... I read this as: people need to be allowed to use weapons cuase they are needed for the military defense in a military service.
Tillie
I mean, with some sneaky lawyers you could make this into a weapon allowance for people serving in the military,
Tillie
It looks to me as if people didnt read that amendment well.
Tillie
It's more this "second amendment nanana allows me everything nananana I gonna buy me a tank nananana" thing, cause people are just stupid.
Tillie
It even says "to the security of a free State" ... there is nothing in there like personal defense or anything else. So as long as there is no major thread to your State, you better shut those weapons into a locker.
Foggy
Saw a Pulse survivor joining the fray. Those kids are amazing. They haven't internalized the sense of powerlessness the NRA has instilled in the rest of us. And are kicking ass.
sjonsvenson
That 2nd amendment was intended to prevent the forceful oppression of the people by the government. A reaction to the old feodal originated monarchy systems in old Europe at the time. The "protection of the free state" in there points to protection agaist their own governement just as well as against foreign states
Foggy
2nd Amendment is waaaay past due for an update...or to be rescinded.
PlurkDevi
Sooooo... A bunch of armed "patriots" are going to take on the US army? Good luck with that.
sjonsvenson
Well, in the 17-hundreds they could cause their weapons were the same as the army's.
Suze
I doubt they could envision a weapon that could fire more than a couple rounds a minute and the closest they had to WMDs were cannonballs with a very limited range.
LludShingles
Amendments are a bastard to add, change, subtract. There's no good reason for the average civilian to have the assault rifles etc. They can have all the hunting equip they want and small arms for self-defense, but an assault rifle isn't going to stop an army equipped w/ bigger "guns." And tanks.
LludShingles
If you want to play with guns intended for killing as many people as possible, join the military.
Tillie
LludShingles
: The amendment doesnt say anything about self defense. So I do not see why they should.
Tillie
"In the navy..." 
Foggy
I'm fully aware how difficult it is to change the constitution, I grew up during the ERA fight. But main arguments on both sides is about how unclear it is regarding modern concerns. And considering the death toll, especially in children and young people, "but that would be HARD" is a bullshit excuse.
Foggy
FFS the damned document is soaked in the blood of our children who are being sacrificed to it.
Foggy
So if the sole reason the gun lobby can come up with for the death toll from their toys is "OMG 2nd Amendment" then this is why we can't have nice things.
Nalates
Tillie
The meaning of the 2nd Amendment is clear in the context of the 1700's. Regardless of the WHY, the government is prohibited from infringing on the right of ownership. Very simple. The idea to restrict ammo is covered in 'bear arms'. You can try to spin it. But, the wording is straightforward.
PlurkDevi
If my right to keep and bear arms may not be infringed then why can't I own a nuclear weapon?
Fearyfox(Reyn)
I just want to add - All guns are ARMS [which is what the 2nd refers to], but not all ARMS are guns. Also, the 2nd refers to a WELL-REGULATED militia, so it doesn't say anything about not regulating arms; most of which are regulated - places don't allow the open or concealed carry of swords, knives, axes... there are places where you can't bring in
Fearyfox(Reyn)
KNITTING NEEDLES FFS, because 'They're sharp', though most of my needles, including the ones in question, aren't even as sharp as a pencil. But the NRA doesn't make money off of those, so they don't care and they push this whole -gun- thing.
Nalates
Polly Because in 1791 the meaning of 'arms' was clear. To include nuclear one has to ignore the context and time of the writing.
Nalates
Faeryfo
Beth) Notice the wording. The militia part is phrased as a 'why'. The right to 'bear arms' limits the gov in regard to regulation. The 1791 context carries several implications common in the day both in the Americas and Europe. Gun control peeps have to ignore the context of the day to support Tillie's thinking.
Beth) Notice the wording. The militia part is phrased as a 'why'. The right to 'bear arms' limits the gov in regard to regulation. The 1791 context carries several implications common in the day both in the Americas and Europe. Gun control peeps have to ignore the context of the day to support Tillie's thinking.
Nalates
Faeryfox the icon in the previous post surprised me... copy-paste didn't work so well. Sorry.
Tillie
I think the gun supporters are the ones who take the stuff out of context.
Nalates
Tillie Is that just opinion or do you have something to support that thinking?
Tillie
The amendment clearly states what it's meant for.
Tillie
The same as the first amendment too. First amendment does NOT say "everyone is allowed to say everything at any time" like some NRA guys want people make believe in that "take down NRA TV from amazon" ...
Tillie
It says "the government shall not make laws ..."
Tillie
But if amazon decides to take down NRA TV it has nothing to do with laws at all, it's their decision. There is no "you must host our shitty show under any circumstances" thingy.
Fearyfox(Reyn)
Nalates
: Its okay, random emojis happen.
PlurkDevi
So we are forever shackled to a 1780s context when interpreting the Constitution? That's absurd.
Tillie
Yes, you fucked it up back then and now have to live with it. 
Tillie
Foggy
The big problem with all the bullshit being perpetrated in the names of the founding fathers is that the government is set up the way it is for a damn good reason. It is set up to allow for change over time in a peaceful way. Rather than civil war, revolution and coup. The idea was that if it wasn't working we could all sit down like adults and fix it.
Foggy
We change our government leaders via election rather than via military takeover, guillotine, knives in the night or poison in the ale flagon. It remains to be seen if the old ways are not better.
Nalates
Tillie If it is so clear, why all the debate over what it says? Those applying context and determining common day usage in 1791 have a much stronger case for the meaning. The courts are upholding that interpretation. So, evidence suggests you are wrong.
Nalates
Amazon is a private company. They are free to take NRA-TV off.
Nalates
You are right the 1st does provide unlimited speech. It only restricts the gov from telling us what we can and can't say. Just as the 2nd says they can't infringe ownership. - But, liberals are attacking the 1st and trying to implement the idea of prohibiting hate speech.
Nalates
If the 2nd was an initial screw up... why did they place it 2nd in the rights of Americans? Do you know the reason? Are you against the reason?
Fearyfox(Reyn)
Wow.... you do realize that Hate Speech = Assualt, which is verbally attacking someone - and its a crime. You also realize the very same people who complain about 'Liberals screwing things up and political correctness, are the -first- to get their panties in a wad, right?