Quinneapolis
[game design] Brainstorming, can someone suggest a situation in which a game would benefit from NOT having one of the following two saving schemes:
Quinneapolis
as in using a third scheme that isn't either one
Quinneapolis
SCHEME 1
Quinneapolis
Player can quicksave at any time, and game saves regularly and automatically.
Quinneapolis
The game also stores a log of all previous saves/autosaves, so if you get stuck you can roll back to an older save.
Quinneapolis
SCHEME 2
Quinneapolis
Game saves automatically after every meaningful decision and on quit, erasing all previous saves. All decisions are irreversible.
Quinneapolis
Breath of the Wild scheme, and Roguelike scheme.
Awe
I'm going to generalize here and say that another scheme is acceptable if it serves the story.
Quinneapolis
can you give an example?
ғᴏxʏᴍᴏʀᴏɴ
undertale, i think
Quinneapolis
ahhh yeah that's a good counterexample
Blighty
undertale was my first thought as well
Quinneapolis
a very specific case, because the save/load system is part of the narrative itself
Quinneapolis
and the game is using the artifice of save points as a concept to worldbuild and also fuck with the player
Blighty
I would say some games could benefit from both
Quinneapolis
what do you mean?
Blighty
Mystery Dungeon/roguelike games that want you to commit to your actions while in the dungeon
Blighty
but outside of the dungeon you should be able to save normally
Quinneapolis
hmm, interesting
Quinneapolis
so a hybrid system
oh i'm scary
Majora's Mask is another example that ties into the story/other game mechanics.
Princess Emily
nier automata
Quinneapolis
although in most roguelikes of that brand, I've seen a permanent autosave system used for the town side as well
Quinneapolis
because between-runs progress is usually only upwards
Quinneapolis
how does saving work in MM?
Blighty
yeah that's true
oh i'm scary
You save when you go back in time.
oh i'm scary
There are also checkpoints for if you need to take a break mid-loop.
oh i'm scary
But the general idea is that certain changes you made become permanent when you time loop.
Hazard Kitten
and you don't lose equipment, but you do loose expendable items unless you store it
Quinneapolis
what would MM lose if it switched to using scheme 1 or 2?
Quinneapolis
Nier Automata did something interesting with saves for sure, although it got a bit conceptually odd with it in the back half
Hazard Kitten
MM would lose a lot of it's urgency in scheme 1
Quinneapolis
what about scheme 2, then?
Hazard Kitten
with 2 - not sure how that work with the time loop scheme
Blighty
I think MM would work with scheme 1 as long as you couldn't go back to a previous time loop
oh i'm scary
I'm not entirely convinced scheme 2 add anything?
Quinneapolis
you can still have checkpoints that the game rolls you back to on a death, I'm not conflating "how you save the game" and "how you recover from a death" necessarily
oh i'm scary
adds.
Awe
that would be very weird for MM
Quinneapolis
I mean, it adds the ability to stop playing whenever you want without losing shit
Blighty
it just would be... a different experience
Hazard Kitten
since lot of MM is keeping track of time and the schedules of NPCs
Awe
since you can't fail a side quest so hard you can't attempt it again there wouldn't be a point
oh i'm scary
Well.
Quinneapolis
and removes the ability to reset the console to quick-redo something without having to do an in-game time reset
oh i'm scary
The save points are also the warp points and you get the ability to warp pretty much at the beginning.
oh i'm scary
So that would maybe be a little more convenient?
Quinneapolis
I think I'm just not understanding these descriptions at all, having not played MM myself
Quinneapolis
I don't have a sense for how this system works
Blighty
the big thing is the time loop
time continues linearly and at the end of 72 hours you have to reset time
Blighty
big plot relevant things you accomplished in those 72 hours stick
Blighty
all sidequest related things reset
oh i'm scary
72 in-game hours is somewhere between 2 and 3 in real-time by the way.
oh i'm scary
But there are ALSO owl statues.
oh i'm scary
Which there's one of in every major location.
Blighty
the point of the game is to accomplish all the big plot things while trying the sidequests until you get them right
oh i'm scary
Where you can just do a conventional save if you need to stop playing.
Blighty
they still won't stick but as long as you do it right once you have the reward and you keep it
oh i'm scary
You can also warp to the nearest one at any time.
Hazard Kitten
and the sidequests differ depending on things you do early, and some are mutually exclusive
Quinneapolis
what happens in MM if you die
oh i'm scary
You respawn at the entrance to the current area with 3 hearts.
oh i'm scary
No progress lost aside from your physical location.
Quinneapolis
I mean, it sounds like MM practically already uses scheme 2
Quinneapolis
it would just make owl statues be warp points
Quinneapolis
and you don't have to conventionally save to stop playing
Quinneapolis
otherwise nothing would change
Quinneapolis
so even more like scheme 2
Blighty
yeah i more or less it is scheme 2 with the added loop reset mechanic
Quinneapolis
yeah, the loop reset is less of a save/load thing and more just part of the flow of the game being about time travel
oh i'm scary
Yeah, but I was a little annoyed by it being removed in the 3DS remake.
oh i'm scary
In which the owl saves are just standard Metroid-save-point permanent saves.
Quinneapolis
about what being removed
oh i'm scary
Saving on time reset.
Quinneapolis
I'm confused
BERSERKER
the 3DS version no longer autosaves when you go back in time and you have to use the owl statues, to save normal saves
BERSERKER
So it actually went backwards.
oh i'm scary
Yeah.
Quinneapolis
that for sure sounds like a worse version, but also basically the opposite of the scheme I'm proposing here
BERSERKER
But yeah, the only examples I can immediately think of that breaks those two schema and do so without feeling bass-ackwards and janky are ones that basically use the mechanic of saving in a strange, metafictional way (Undertale, to a degree Nier Automata)
oh i'm scary
I was thinking you were suggesting autosaves taking the place of saving on reset?
Quinneapolis
I'm suggesting, like...
Quinneapolis
dark souls.
Quinneapolis
the dark souls saving system.
Quinneapolis
you put down the game, then you come back to it, and it's right where you left off.
Quinneapolis
nothing in the game that actively 'saves', just continuity between play sessoins.
Quinneapolis
sessions*
ShootingXC
we have the technology
oh i'm scary
Anyway.
oh i'm scary
I apologize for making this entire plurk be about The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask, which is my quirk.
oh i'm scary
It's the power of my stand.
Quinneapolis
I'm totally here to defend my two-pronged ultimate save schemes in specific use cases so I don't mind at all
Quinneapolis
I do however totally concede that some games use saving in interesting metafictional ways
Quinneapolis
but other than those
Quinneapolis
I really do think that schemes 1/2 cover basically everything?
ShootingXC
has anyone done password saves in an interesting metafictional use?
Quinneapolis
I don't think so
Quinneapolis
probably because password saving is a hell that we have thankfully escaped
dragon time
First one seems like it would start chewing up memory pretty fast
Quinneapolis
if your save structure is complex enough that it's a memory issue, you could store the last X autosaves
dragon time
That would be good
Quinneapolis
but on modern hardware it's seldom gonna be an issue outside of like mobile games
Quinneapolis
because a save is gonna be like 1kb and harddrives are into the terabytes
dragon time
(Good hardrives are into the terabytes)
Quinneapolis
I mean, even with a 100GB hard drive, that's 1000 saves to get to 1 MB
Quinneapolis
which is 0.001% of your space
Blighty
i think this is an easy variant of scheme 1 but I also sometimes want like
the ability to play two diverging paths and have saves in both of them at the same time without overwriting the other in any way
Quinneapolis
yeah I think in an ideal implementation you have like
Quinneapolis
the autosave log and the manual save log separately
Quinneapolis
so you can just manualsave, then do a bunch of shit, then load the manual save to do a bunch of other shit, and keep both
Quinneapolis
obviously a lot of the more frustrating saving schemes from the past weren't because people just didn't think of these or anything like that
Quinneapolis
it was tech constraints
Quinneapolis
you couldn't keep 20 autosaves on a NES cartridge battery
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