Neo Quinn
[game design] Brainstorming, can someone suggest a situation in which a game would benefit from NOT having one of the following two saving schemes:
Neo Quinn
as in using a third scheme that isn't either one
Neo Quinn
SCHEME 1
Neo Quinn
Player can quicksave at any time, and game saves regularly and automatically.
Neo Quinn
The game also stores a log of all previous saves/autosaves, so if you get stuck you can roll back to an older save.
Neo Quinn
SCHEME 2
Neo Quinn
Game saves automatically after every meaningful decision and on quit, erasing all previous saves. All decisions are irreversible.
Neo Quinn
Breath of the Wild scheme, and Roguelike scheme.
Awe
I'm going to generalize here and say that another scheme is acceptable if it serves the story.
Neo Quinn
can you give an example?
ғᴏxʏᴍᴏʀᴏɴ
undertale, i think
Neo Quinn
ahhh yeah that's a good counterexample
Wighty
undertale was my first thought as well
Neo Quinn
a very specific case, because the save/load system is part of the narrative itself
Neo Quinn
and the game is using the artifice of save points as a concept to worldbuild and also fuck with the player
Wighty
I would say some games could benefit from both
Neo Quinn
what do you mean?
Wighty
Mystery Dungeon/roguelike games that want you to commit to your actions while in the dungeon
Wighty
but outside of the dungeon you should be able to save normally
Neo Quinn
hmm, interesting
Neo Quinn
so a hybrid system
daughter hours
Majora's Mask is another example that ties into the story/other game mechanics.
Princess Emily
nier automata
Neo Quinn
although in most roguelikes of that brand, I've seen a permanent autosave system used for the town side as well
Neo Quinn
because between-runs progress is usually only upwards
Neo Quinn
how does saving work in MM?
Wighty
yeah that's true
daughter hours
You save when you go back in time.
daughter hours
There are also checkpoints for if you need to take a break mid-loop.
daughter hours
But the general idea is that certain changes you made become permanent when you time loop.
Happy Hogswatch
and you don't lose equipment, but you do loose expendable items unless you store it
Neo Quinn
what would MM lose if it switched to using scheme 1 or 2?
Neo Quinn
Nier Automata did something interesting with saves for sure, although it got a bit conceptually odd with it in the back half
Happy Hogswatch
MM would lose a lot of it's urgency in scheme 1
Neo Quinn
what about scheme 2, then?
Happy Hogswatch
with 2 - not sure how that work with the time loop scheme
Wighty
I think MM would work with scheme 1 as long as you couldn't go back to a previous time loop
daughter hours
I'm not entirely convinced scheme 2 add anything?
Neo Quinn
you can still have checkpoints that the game rolls you back to on a death, I'm not conflating "how you save the game" and "how you recover from a death" necessarily
daughter hours
adds.
Awe
that would be very weird for MM
Neo Quinn
I mean, it adds the ability to stop playing whenever you want without losing shit
Wighty
it just would be... a different experience
Happy Hogswatch
since lot of MM is keeping track of time and the schedules of NPCs
Awe
since you can't fail a side quest so hard you can't attempt it again there wouldn't be a point
daughter hours
Well.
Neo Quinn
and removes the ability to reset the console to quick-redo something without having to do an in-game time reset
daughter hours
The save points are also the warp points and you get the ability to warp pretty much at the beginning.
daughter hours
So that would maybe be a little more convenient?
Neo Quinn
I think I'm just not understanding these descriptions at all, having not played MM myself
Neo Quinn
I don't have a sense for how this system works
Wighty
the big thing is the time loop
time continues linearly and at the end of 72 hours you have to reset time
Wighty
big plot relevant things you accomplished in those 72 hours stick
Wighty
all sidequest related things reset
daughter hours
72 in-game hours is somewhere between 2 and 3 in real-time by the way.
daughter hours
But there are ALSO owl statues.
daughter hours
Which there's one of in every major location.
Wighty
the point of the game is to accomplish all the big plot things while trying the sidequests until you get them right
daughter hours
Where you can just do a conventional save if you need to stop playing.
Wighty
they still won't stick but as long as you do it right once you have the reward and you keep it
daughter hours
You can also warp to the nearest one at any time.
Happy Hogswatch
and the sidequests differ depending on things you do early, and some are mutually exclusive
Neo Quinn
what happens in MM if you die
daughter hours
You respawn at the entrance to the current area with 3 hearts.
daughter hours
No progress lost aside from your physical location.
Neo Quinn
I mean, it sounds like MM practically already uses scheme 2
Neo Quinn
it would just make owl statues be warp points
Neo Quinn
and you don't have to conventionally save to stop playing
Neo Quinn
otherwise nothing would change
Neo Quinn
so even more like scheme 2
Wighty
yeah i more or less it is scheme 2 with the added loop reset mechanic
Neo Quinn
yeah, the loop reset is less of a save/load thing and more just part of the flow of the game being about time travel
daughter hours
Yeah, but I was a little annoyed by it being removed in the 3DS remake.
daughter hours
In which the owl saves are just standard Metroid-save-point permanent saves.
Neo Quinn
about what being removed
daughter hours
Saving on time reset.
Neo Quinn
I'm confused
A REGULAR GUY
the 3DS version no longer autosaves when you go back in time and you have to use the owl statues, to save normal saves
A REGULAR GUY
So it actually went backwards.
daughter hours
Yeah.
Neo Quinn
that for sure sounds like a worse version, but also basically the opposite of the scheme I'm proposing here
A REGULAR GUY
But yeah, the only examples I can immediately think of that breaks those two schema and do so without feeling bass-ackwards and janky are ones that basically use the mechanic of saving in a strange, metafictional way (Undertale, to a degree Nier Automata)
daughter hours
I was thinking you were suggesting autosaves taking the place of saving on reset?
Neo Quinn
I'm suggesting, like...
Neo Quinn
dark souls.
Neo Quinn
the dark souls saving system.
Neo Quinn
you put down the game, then you come back to it, and it's right where you left off.
Neo Quinn
nothing in the game that actively 'saves', just continuity between play sessoins.
Neo Quinn
sessions*
eggnogflavored
we have the technology
daughter hours
Anyway.
daughter hours
I apologize for making this entire plurk be about The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask, which is my quirk.
daughter hours
It's the power of my stand.
Neo Quinn
I'm totally here to defend my two-pronged ultimate save schemes in specific use cases so I don't mind at all
Neo Quinn
I do however totally concede that some games use saving in interesting metafictional ways
Neo Quinn
but other than those
Neo Quinn
I really do think that schemes 1/2 cover basically everything?
eggnogflavored
has anyone done password saves in an interesting metafictional use?
Neo Quinn
I don't think so
Neo Quinn
probably because password saving is a hell that we have thankfully escaped
rose time
First one seems like it would start chewing up memory pretty fast
Neo Quinn
if your save structure is complex enough that it's a memory issue, you could store the last X autosaves
rose time
That would be good
Neo Quinn
but on modern hardware it's seldom gonna be an issue outside of like mobile games
Neo Quinn
because a save is gonna be like 1kb and harddrives are into the terabytes
rose time
(Good hardrives are into the terabytes)
Neo Quinn
I mean, even with a 100GB hard drive, that's 1000 saves to get to 1 MB
Neo Quinn
which is 0.001% of your space
Wighty
i think this is an easy variant of scheme 1 but I also sometimes want like
the ability to play two diverging paths and have saves in both of them at the same time without overwriting the other in any way
Neo Quinn
yeah I think in an ideal implementation you have like
Neo Quinn
the autosave log and the manual save log separately
Neo Quinn
so you can just manualsave, then do a bunch of shit, then load the manual save to do a bunch of other shit, and keep both
Neo Quinn
obviously a lot of the more frustrating saving schemes from the past weren't because people just didn't think of these or anything like that
Neo Quinn
it was tech constraints
Neo Quinn
you couldn't keep 20 autosaves on a NES cartridge battery
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