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[Econ] 1.01 WE DO THIS >:3 (not locking because I need as many voices as possible to tell me where I'm wrong/need better explanation skills)
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Pinging later when I work out my shit
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/cracks knuckles
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REMINDER: I have two big problems, 1] I take things for granted as being easy knowledge (like how did people NOT know Donald Duck was in the Navy? I MEAN REALLY REALLLLLLY I thought everyone knew that!) 2] Or I over-explain because I can't tell how much people don't know and I only understand things when contextualized through literally everything else.
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So please -> POINT OUT TO ME WHEN THINGS ARE UNCLEAR BECAUSE OF PRESUMPTION OF UNDERSTANDING AND/OR EXPLAINING TOO MUCH.
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-> Double Reminder: Do NOT be like my Dad (please) and play Devil's Advocate of "well sure I understood, but someone else might not!!!" because we can play that into infinity and it won't help me. Just you don't be afraid to not understand something because that is on Me Not You so PLEASE DO SPEAK UP. Just don't feel the need to pretend to not
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understand something if you do in fact think you get it. Asking for clarification ie "I think you mean this, but is that so?" is also awesome ;-) Thanks guys
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Part 1: What is Money? What is the value of any currency? Of circulation? What good can it do, or is it just a means for corruption, and 1.5: why hoarding is a thing that must be dealt with.
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-- Plurk note: I don't have the health to just write up the full chapters yet, which is why I'm doing this freestyle conversational, in the hopes that I can well narrow the fuck down the good, the bad and the ugly on all this. Keeping in mind, I basically tell Sharon I feel like I'm a black hole compressing and eating stars and trying to burp out gamma rays
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Money is at its most basic root, a shorthand means to measure exchange. Goods, products, services. In ancient Africa, salt was exchangeable to the weight of gold because salt was so important for nearly all aspects of life.
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It's a pain in the ass to determine how many eggs a single chicken is worth, and it gets even more stupidly complicated when you want to figure out how many apples a day of working in the sun is worth. A house? Your life?
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The value inherently differs person to person, just as the value of your individual life will have different meaning to different people. Those closest to you are likely to rank it very highly, where your enemies might have an entirely different perspective.
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This is why bartering exists, because attempting to find out how much something is worth is difficult. In the altruistic ideal of a "free market" everything is worth "whatever someone is willing to pay" or sacrifice for it.
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Money is a short hand tool that allows for calculating such things in a far easier way.
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Money is inherently governmental. If a society is small enough, it can do without such broad institutions, but the larger a society gets, the more must be exchanged and accounted for, much more than anyone person can account for.
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Comparing the bartering system market places of pre Greco-Roman eras to the 2016 New York Stock Exchange is even more difficult than comparing the price of someone's head to apples. Who's head? Why? Where are the apples going? Can they make the trip or will they need to produced into cider or an easier storage system first?
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In a small village, a chief could help settle disputes; acting in a way as a form of money himself, as well as government. However, by the time kingdoms and countries arose; money became a necessary institution for all parts of government affairs. More than just the chief helping settle disputes, money and wealth became signs of authority, and the hoarded
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wealth and inherent power within was passed down via generations. Borders, resources, and lives were all tied to just a simple form of measurement. But this is because, more than what the money actually tangibly was; was what it represented and enabled.
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From a guard getting paid to help a merchant move goods from farms to towns to city-states, to different countries; to the very bandits who would waylay such travelers; money is but a means to an ends.
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The value of money could be arbitrarily chaotic. And in such situations, where no one really knows what anything is worth, chaos is just opportunity for corruption. But because government is so inherently tied to money, there is actually a chance there to remove the chaos and corruption -- though this is rarely, if ever done, because usually those who
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seek to take advantage of the corrupt chaotic state will do just that.
𝔯𝔞𝔦𝔫𝔟𝔬𝔴 𝔭𝔦𝔯𝔞𝔠𝑦~
/nods
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There's a scene in "Quick Changes" a 1980s US movie about a homeless black man and a Philadelphia high class stock broker who wind up switching places due to a theoretical game played by their bosses; wherein they frame the stock broker for theft by marking a wad of bills with Red X's and then having everyone turn out the pockets of the person(s) standing
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on either side. This was to publicly shame and ruin his career permanently; but imagine if you could just do this with any scam artist money.
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Far fetched? The technology and laws would have to advance far more?
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Actually, both are already in place. Unfortunately, they're simply not being used by the people for the people, but instead by systems for individual's benefit, rather than by everyone as a whole -- whether that's ethical or not. Credit Cards' primary job is to collect interest, being a loaning based on credit institution; but no credit company can succeed
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without the grand show of security; one of the biggest things being false charges. In case the card is stolen, or someone falsely uses the numbers.
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Meanwhile in the crackdown on drugs/illegal substances, and terrorism, US law has already reached the point where cops can confiscate money they even suspect will be used in pursuit of criminal activities.
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This does very little to help the average person, but it could just as easily be turned sideways to do just that!
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Governments' existence depends on the lifeblood and activity of its people. Should they will for something to change and happen; throughout history if government has not ceded the way to help the people, then the government as an institution will fall.
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Money is a measurement, but of what? -> Of value. And value is only determined by the will of the people, just as the government needs to be.
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The first step to getting anything changed (and even if your life is perfect, you probably do seek an improvement somewhere in some way) is to understand what you as an individual value most, and what you want others in your society to value, and how to help your government protect that.
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As it stands now; where chaos exists, the corrupt will find a way to get their own benefits from it, to the detriment of other individuals, and very often; society as a whole. But it doesn't have to be that way. Just as guards can help protect merchants, imagine a time where bandits could be better employed to do better and get more money even more easily-
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to make themselves happier. After all; money is just a means to an ends.
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-- Circulation is the most necessary part of any currency. This is a fact, but I'll try to prove my point.
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What is an inch or a mile worth, when no one uses those terms anymore? What does a millimeter amount to, to a space alien who's never heard of the definition and doesn't have the means to translate it?
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How long is the King's nose? Which King? How would you even know?
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Money is called currency because it must be kept current. Like an electrical current, if it stops flowing; it dies. Money as a measurement for financial success and wealth can quickly become utterly meaningless so long as no one uses it. By this nature; it would die even quicker than a government whose entire people turned on it.
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A tool without someone to implement it, is only an object. It cannot create, it cannot even destroy, it will merely decay as would everything else.
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The reason people "buy gold" in economic depressions, is in case the government by which their current form of currency is tied; does something so irrational and detrimental to the entire financial construct that it all comes tumbling down. In ancient Africa where salt and gold were equally worth one another pound for pound, gold tends to last as a form
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of wealth due to its sheen and ability to outlast the original buyer. Thus it has perceived longevity. See also: diamonds. And diamonds have even more valuable properties than just visible forms of wealth, but as the hardest substance known to man, they not only last "forever" but are very useful in weapons.
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All of which was far more relevant and significant in an era where you suspected the French Revolution was going to start beheading royalty and not even God could tell you what corrupt forces were going to take advantage of the ensuing chaos.
𝔯𝔞𝔦𝔫𝔟𝔬𝔴 𝔭𝔦𝔯𝔞𝔠𝑦~
/nod
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Money no more needs to be tied to a physical entity, than inches and miles do. And they both frequently are still thus tied, for the exact same reasons. It does provide a psychological benefit -- in the case of physical money, it is easier to take with you if things happen (natural disasters: hurricanes, earthquakes, floods), and people universally do
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best when able to relate intangible ideas to more physical ones. Human spirituality, for example, is again, universally tied to many physical rites and rituals to ease the concepts. By no means, is this a bad thing or something to look down upon. -> HOWEVER:
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When it comes to all money, being inherently tied to a physical form, this is a basic misunderstanding of what money is, and what it exists for.
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(*why it exists??? ehhh)
𝔯𝔞𝔦𝔫𝔟𝔬𝔴 𝔭𝔦𝔯𝔞𝔠𝑦~
either/or
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Currently (2017), most international countries actually calculate their own economies and financial situations by using the US dollar to compare to. The Chinese actually tie their currency directly to the US Dollar for a variety of benefits (** Chinese Currency Manipulation | Economics Help but money is just how GDP = Gross Domestic Product is measured in.
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Inflation is usually seen as a bad thing because it means the price of goods going up, but no inflation at all, or worse, deflation, can actually destroy a modern economy!
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Population growth is often seen as a sign of the end of the world. In fact, there are numerous ancient civilizations that thoroughly believed they'd out-populate the planet (or at minimum: region) and self-destruct on account of it. This is quite possibly the oldest fear in mankind since the discovery and general understanding of mortality.
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Yet if the will and "money existed" we could globally produce more food than 3 times the world's current population (7 billion and growing) could eat.
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There are already dozens, maybe even hundreds and thousands of books explaining why we are not currently doing that, and how to make it happen, and what roadblocks are in the way (infrastructure to reach all people expediently; profit, willpower of people enough to pressure their governments to "force" the changes that need be)
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But let's go back to inflation and currency. Without inflation, people have even less reason to keep money circulating. It becomes like gold and diamonds, only wherein if you do not have a big goal one is saving up for; it just becomes bling: a showy sign of wealth you can try to lord over others.
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Hoarding is a multi-faceted aspect of human nature. It can be an inability or unwillingness to dispose of things (my family is Native American and my Mother is incapable of throwing things out. Even the most pointless rubbish, she naturally wants to recycle and holds an ethical value to the idea of never ever wasting anything.) 2] the idea that you might
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"need it later" -- such as in times of famine or drought, having food set aside specifically for the event of such occasions was something that managed to perpetuate our species for so long! -> Although it MUST be noted, that it's believed if the plagues of the bible did actually happen, then the eldest son dying was probably because they eldest son was more
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likely to be given extra grain at meals, and given the bad year of locusts and the Nile covered in red algae; the grain was almost certainly granary stored and partially diseased leading to a slow build-up.
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-> This will come in play later
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3] the desire to make others envious -> 3.5] Save for your descendants.
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3] As petty as it is to hold wealth as power over others, -> 3.5] it's often justified as being not for an individual's sake, but rather their children, grandchildren, and future. ALL societies seek to protect their young, and thus very few can truly find fault with such an ideal, except when it comes directly to the cost of their own young; which can
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sometimes by the case, but in the case of hoarding; it's almost never so obliquely direct.
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Hoarding was once a skill that helped humanity survive the ice age, plagues, floods, locusts, and whatever else Earth threw at us, and nearly vice versa.
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It can also result in some of the most asinine backwards regressive detrimental to humanity behaviors even known to mankind.
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Native American tribes wasted nothing, believing as part of their spirituality and religion, that waste; taking from the physical world and others and being detrimental to it, rather than in protective symbiosis with it; was the gravest of sinful behaviors. ( ** Don't word for word quote me on that, I'm trying to translate it through fifteen cultural
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norms and mores)
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Yet, because they were primarily nomadic and could often travel hundreds of milesbetween where they'd settle from one time to the next; each member of the tribe had to isolate what was most important, what was mostvaluable* to them, and what was worth carrying possibly hundreds and hundreds of miles
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Indeed; because of the wolf pack nature and fighting amongst the tribes, they often had to be light enough to ensure being ready to battle at a moment's notice.
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( my *s got messed up above idek why)
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This curbed most hoarding tendencies before it could even begin. Clothes, tents, shoes, bags, weapons, tools, everything was streamlined for maximum efficiency. There was still jewelery, and among the Powhatan (Pocahontas' tribe) and Iroquois where there was a lot more stability and security along the coasts; they could afford to be even more showy (one of
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John Smith's presumably acquired via trade artifacts is the Powhatan mantle on display in Oxford at the Ashmolean Museum, which is comprised of 2 buck deerskin worked over in Roanoke seashells, either a treasure of the village, or something that would have been brought West to trade with the chief's brother, or even just to show off to him)
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Indeed, among Native American Indian tribes; the greatest sign of wealth for any tribe was the ability to have a large population and still ensure no one would go hungry. The idea of measuring wealth so differently is part of why money was also measured so incomparably to Europeans, but back to hoarding, circulation, currency, and inflation.
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While hoarding can sometimes provide for wealth for the future -- it necessitates a difference to be stressed between just greed and conservatism.
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One of the most significant Chinese virtues is that of frugality. This predates even Confucius and Buddha, though certainly their teachings enhanced and perpetuated it. A general Chinese proverb is to set aside 1/3rd of one's incomes and earnings for the future, be it in case of emergencies, or for descendants.
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^ GDI I always confuse Quick Changes & Trading Places. Is Quick Changes the one with Bill Murray robbing the bank as a clown? >:T
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I am shit at names. I've seen that movie like 30 times but can I get the name right? (doh)
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One of my absolute faves (LOL)
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In this way, pragmatic hoarding can be seen very nearly as virtue! Just as people can rarely, if ever, object to the idea of saving up for the sake of one's children, being cautious for the sake of an unexpected emergency is considered a virtue, something for society to applaud and admire.
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word
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However, not all hoarding is altruistic. Sometimes it's just hoarding. And it can quickly become detrimental when it comes at the cost of others. -> THIS is where inflation becomes Necessary.
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Devaluing the worth of an individual dollar is an absolute must in order to keep the money in circulation.
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Where food can only be hoarded for so long before it inevitably decays-
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Yeah it's a black hole. Ambition, greed, lust, it'll consume you from the inside out. And whether the need for more is because of fear or any of the others; it cannot be filled
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-- gold and paper money do not quite have those restrictions. Indeed, intangible money where it is just a measurement tool, has even less need not to hoard, and when you earn interest and are rewarded for hoarding more; this creates an endless cycle.
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bornofwolves: It's not logic. That's why. It's not even animal logic. It's just part of the chaos factor. Wherein you leave room for corruption, they will take advantage of it, period.
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-- Well I'd like to focus less on "oh if we could just get the rich to give up their money uwu;;" and more on "Stop enabling their destructive behaviors and enable the broader good for everyone"
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The biggest problem I have with both Dem & Rep. rhetoric because they're both just bought shills /cough cough/ but anyway
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That's what I'm working on here ;-)
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You don't.
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So don't bother
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do better than that
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Chess game. Stop playing to their game and make them start playing to yours
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-- However, in keeping money out of circulation, it does nothing but stagnate. Worse: it actually is detrimental to the greater society using that currency because it becomes less useful! This is where deflation is one of the most dangerous things that can happen financially to a society, and yet highly profitable for anyone who already hoards a great deal
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of money (ie: banks, credit cards, and financial institutions. There was one point during the Barack Obama administration where he was convinced to lower the interest rate and thanks to his appointment of Timothy Geithner financial analysts were concerned more than ever about the risks of deflation
Obama Faces Deflation Risk
-- which would have gone
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to helping banks and hurting the broader American and even international public)
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Taxes provide a wide variety of uses to the government (and in a government founded of, by, and for the people: the people ought to be in charge and reap the most benefits, or else their government is failing them)
Mags
oh gosh I already have a page of notes and I just got to the "Quick Change" part. Do you want them in a separate plurk or here? I hate to derail when there's so much already here... >.>
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Hold onto them so I can finish the thought and then I can expand hopefully ;-)
Mags
o7
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not just to provide military might and security; but even just tying the financial currency to the government is an important deal. For instance, while gift cards are generally accepted, they're directly tied to a government's money and the company is taxed accordingly. BitCoin eventually had to start acceding to government authority too for the same
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reasons; that it is tied to government money and the only way to ensure government authority is through that.
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Keynesian economics is an entire branch of economic study, theory, and techniques devoted to using taxes to assage inflation/deflation, and general productivity of a country (ie: raising taxes on sugar to try to combat diabetes, or lowering taxes on whole grains to try to promote them)
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-->>> Hang on a moment I'm like nearly done but blargh blargh gamma ray compression
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- But any artificial or government created restrictions impacting the flow of Supply and Demand (Chapter 2) are seen as impositions on an unfettered "free market," as they inherently obstruct the "normal" means of assessing the value (whatever someone will pay) for products. ->
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Instead of trying to pay equal weight in salt for gold, or trying to determine the value of our hoarded frozen concentrated orange juice (worth more when fresh is going to be unavailable!!) what if we could employ those who purposely seek to hoard and get the most out of any situation to ascertain the values for us? They already do this to a degree --
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The stock market is the most rapidly changing by the millisecond gambling addict's paradise or ruin weighing and conversion of goods center; but instead of working to help everyone get the most out of their money, those who profit the most are currently modern day royalty. It's time for our economics to evolve; because we've outstripped the system to a
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point where it's no longer useful to us and we're not getting the most out of it, but we can do better. ---
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Blah blah blah, if I do this right, it should explain by the end how something something <- replacing old system with new better one, which I am not even going to say, because it should be obvious what I propose is awesomesauce and why and that's the whole point of explaining it
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Okay gimme your notes Mags (LOL)
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Oh wait shit no
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I remember the thing I forgot
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okay so ->
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Currency = what is currently used by that current government
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It has had to be updated constantly Not just to compensate for ever-changing values (apples being worth more when they're rarer because of trade routes or what have you, crops, droughts, etc.)
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but because of hoarding.
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The Romans FREQUENTLY had moments where they just said "sod it" and completely disposed of old currency with only a year or so before replacing for new
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and the U.S. military has had to do this with script often
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Again; not just for hoarding and values, but tying back to government control & authority. This is one of the biggest things about the post Revolutionary War, and even the confederate vs. Union Civil War.
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Sovereignty isn't just border control and a right of country to determine its citizenry; but its currency and how taxes are determined.
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He's hard anarchist and I respect his "EXTREME ANTI-GOV" if just for the consistency (LOL)
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He is like "NO. NO GOVERNMENT IS GOOD GOVERNMENT."
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And everyone is like "Well what about doing X" "NO"
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"What about Y" "NO!"
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"What about Z? EVEN YOUR OWN PARTY IS OBSESSED WITH Z!" "NO!"
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rofl
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-- Currency can quickly become outdated when the people stop using it, just as with the government. If everyone refused to use the Dollar, then this is where gold would be dramatically more valuable again. Yet, assuming that kind of doomsday scenario assumes one *where the entire US government falls apart, not just financially but as an institution
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including the military* -- so it's unlikely to ever happen, to say the least. Am I saying "Don't buy gold"? Yeah. Because if the Zombie Apocalypse happens, the most useful investment is going to be a farm, a lot of shotguns, and a lot of Zombie-resistant friends who've got your back. Just saying.
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The value of any currency is only what people assign to it. And for all the phobia inducing runs on gold; it's not a practical investment.
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^ That is LITERALLY what my Dad thinks the Republicans are doing though
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Trying to create themselves as warlords
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(LOL)
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I hope to paint a more happy future (LOL)
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Since "RUN AROUND LIKE HEADLESS CHICKENS IT'S HERE! HITLER 2.0 AND THE THIRD ANTI-CHRIST HAVE COMETH AAAIIYAAAA" is covered by others
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Yeah but see
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if I'd been there I'd be like "HE CAN'T GET ALL OF US. LET'S RUSH HIM" and tackled the fucker only to be like "YOU ALL SUCK AS BACKUP FUCK YOU"
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Some people are fuckers. But when there's more annoyed at fuckers than not, we should probably stop letting them decide our lives, mmk?
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Like that's still something I think the general Republicans do not fucking get
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lmao right?
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yes
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With their whole financial crisis tantrum shitting during the Obama years
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they threatened not to pay the military :|
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like duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuude
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French Revolution
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You can push your luck so far
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right
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JFC AND NOW TRUMP
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SO
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THAT IS NOT GOING TO GO WELL FOR THEM
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But even most political analysts are just like
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"They're basically at the end of the Roman Empire and looting the castle and countryside while they can"
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I just want to show "Hey guys, here's a crazy thought, let's like NOT do so badly next time that we enable all the shit we already hate? HOW DOES THAT SOUND? SOUND GOOD TO YOU? AWESOME. HERE'S SOME WAYS TO DO BETTER. WORK IT."
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lmao no
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Like I said
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looting
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It's like
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/s h r u g
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That's because they are feeding into the Alex Jones believers
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because those are the crazy stick-throwers
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and they'd rather have those poor crazy fuckers on their side and throwing sticks at their enemies/detractors than deal with us banding up with them
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I mean
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can you blame them
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Yushchenko though. It's like Yuschenko
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You think "WHY?! WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY?"
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And it's like "Well there's no going back now, might as well see how far I can push this :|"
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But I mean
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the GOP has been dealing with playing the "You're a crazy rabid monster and I might have to put a bullet in your brain, but you're MY crazy rabid out of control monster that will probably skin and eat me later tonight" for awhile
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Swear to god, the funniest thing I ever saw was on CSPAN
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just watching the GOP Reps SLOWLY REALIZE
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How fucked they were in 2010/2011
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when the Tea Party was just "BURN IT ALL DOWN" to eveeeeeeeeeeeerything
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The Republicans were like "We're not obstructionist for the sake of it! SEE WE CAN DO SHIT" and it was just discussing adding state parks and territories to the national quarters
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and the Tea Party was filibustering just to rant and rave about nothing
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lol yes
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and the Dems just looked at the GOP like "Hey he's YOUR crazy"
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and the GOP had to be like "Okay I'm not disagreeing with you but we're just talking about quarters :|"
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and it was like the epitome of every sitcom has that one guy in a tinfoil hat who yells at the city council for hours because they haven't solved the problem of aliens surveilling his house
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so again
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They're used to this now
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This is what they do
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Mind you
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Dems are so pussy-weakling-cucked-into-the-gutter-soul-selling-for-nothing-in-return pathetic that even Frankenstein's monster outsmarts them but
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\:|/ FOR THE MOST PART, people are waking up and going "WOW DEMS ARE PATHETIC AS SHIT CAN'T WE DO BETTER?!"
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and I am here to say "YES. YES WE CAN. AND THIS IS HOW"
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"I mean if you like it, otherwise it falls the fuck apart, but I'm pretty sure you will if I can ever fucking explain my condensation of 10000 years of financial & governmental development and the next step yes"
𝔯𝔞𝔦𝔫𝔟𝔬𝔴 𝔭𝔦𝔯𝔞𝔠𝑦~
Did you veer off topic?
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More than once
𝔯𝔞𝔦𝔫𝔟𝔬𝔴 𝔭𝔦𝔯𝔞𝔠𝑦~
XD yes but I mean if you're still off /shoos you back on
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Nah I'm done
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Supply vs. Demand is Chapter 2
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I was gonna try to answer Mags' questions before pinging everyone else
𝔯𝔞𝔦𝔫𝔟𝔬𝔴 𝔭𝔦𝔯𝔞𝔠𝑦~
XD Oh
𝔯𝔞𝔦𝔫𝔟𝔬𝔴 𝔭𝔦𝔯𝔞𝔠𝑦~
well then >>;
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Do you have any? /poke poke poke
𝔯𝔞𝔦𝔫𝔟𝔬𝔴 𝔭𝔦𝔯𝔞𝔠𝑦~
n-no orz
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XD WELL IT SHOULD BE A GOOD THING THEN SO LONG AS I AM NOT CONFUSING YOU
𝔯𝔞𝔦𝔫𝔟𝔬𝔴 𝔭𝔦𝔯𝔞𝔠𝑦~
I mean it makes sense to me but I don't know of anything
𝔯𝔞𝔦𝔫𝔟𝔬𝔴 𝔭𝔦𝔯𝔞𝔠𝑦~
to really
𝔯𝔞𝔦𝔫𝔟𝔬𝔴 𝔭𝔦𝔯𝔞𝔠𝑦~
contribute
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I don't want contributions (LOL)
Seijin CC
I want to make sure -- YOU ARE MY BABY BIRDS. I HAVE FETCHED AND DIGESTED THE FOOD. I WANT TO SPIT IT ALL BACK TO YOU NOW :| I NEED TO KNOW YOU ARE NOT GAGGING ON IT :V
𝔯𝔞𝔦𝔫𝔟𝔬𝔴 𝔭𝔦𝔯𝔞𝔠𝑦~
dats good worm?
Seijin CC
((Isn't that a beautiful metaphor?))
Seijin CC
Okay so if I take it from a teacher-y position:
𝔯𝔞𝔦𝔫𝔟𝔬𝔴 𝔭𝔦𝔯𝔞𝔠𝑦~
(tell everyone to read Going Postal and Making Money by Terry Pratchett because that is a really good way of explaining currency and such like)
𝔯𝔞𝔦𝔫𝔟𝔬𝔴 𝔭𝔦𝔯𝔞𝔠𝑦~
(like gold is only good because people say it is but anything can be like stamps or bitcoins)
Seijin CC
What do you think I view money as?
What does hoarding lead to?
Why is it important to keep money circulating?
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