Quinneapolis
[venting in my own space]
Quinneapolis
Frisk can reasonably read as nonbinary, ambiguous for player self-insertion, or both
Quinneapolis
but Kris?
Quinneapolis
Kris is nonbinary
Quinneapolis
family and friends who have known Kris for their entire life use they/them consistently for them
Quinneapolis
Kris's mom doesn't just, not know their gender
Quinneapolis
if a bunch of randos who you've never met use they/them then maybe they just don't know your gender
Quinneapolis
if your entire friend circle and your own mother use they/them then it's because you asked them to
Quinneapolis
Kris rejects manity and womanity and becomes Kid
Dirk Warhard
I don't even think it's reasonable to read Frisk's gender as ambiguous. All three humans in Undertale/Deltarune are very deliberately nb and anybody arguing otherwise just doesn't like being confronted with their own blind spot
Quinneapolis
I agree that Frisk and Chara are nb but I can at least understand why someone might think otherwise
Quinneapolis
but Kris is just. that's really straightforward
Quinneapolis
it does not make sense to read them any other way
Rama
Frisk has absence of evidence for gender. Kris has evidence of absence. The only way not to understand the latter is being willfully obtuse.
Rama
Put aside all text even and Dog Himself has said Kris's pronouns are they/them
Rama
If you use other ones you are wrong
Wild Child
it's funny how everyone says Chara's gender is "up to interpretation" because "they're meant to represent you" and yet no one ever uses a name for them other than Chara
Wild Child
despite that being the one thing you ACTUALLY get to customize
Wild Child
(it's not funny)
Rama
Chara is such a weird thing I can't even talk about who or what they are without a small essay of caveats
Rama
But like
Rama
There's no ambiguity to Kris, at all, in this specific respect
penis bacon
I would not be surprised if Consistently Misgendering Kris is one of the biggest reasons that Toby detests MatPat
Dirk Warhard
Chara's in the same boat as Kris, where their family uses they/them. The only one you could remotely argue is Frisk, and I stand firm that it's a willful misinterpretation of the text and undeniably contrary to the creator's intent
Dirk Warhard
it's as well supported as deciding the persona 4 protagonist is nb, actually
Quinneapolis
I won't argue with it
Quinneapolis
since my point isn't that Frisk isn't nb but that Kris unbelievably is
Dirk Warhard
I just think you're being too generous in ceding even that much
Quinneapolis
okay the conversation I'm venting about has pivoted in an exciting new direction now
Quinneapolis
"im gonna say something edgy here: as it's portrayed in the game, kris/noelle is erasure both of noelle's gayness and kris's nonbinary gender, and that's what makes it good"
Dirk Warhard
what
shivorce
????
shivorce
Bizarre conclusion to reach
penis bacon
jesus christ
Quinneapolis
https://images.plurk.com/1awwL5Ui1lb9JTs2c714X9.png how's your monday going plurk
moontouched
h u h
★ тяу-нαя∂уи
what the fuck
Rama
Jesus Christ
Echo
That opinion not only makes no sense, it's also bad.
thetaClysm
so "edgy" means "intentionally inflammatory" in this context, huh
Echo
Apparently.
Snowdrops ミ☆
as like... an intentionally toxic ship????? that's the only read I can get on this that is remotely charitable
Quinneapolis
like what they were saying is that the snowgrave route is emotionally compelling because it plays conventional gender roles as horror but also
Quinneapolis
you chose a bad time to bring that up and an intentionally provocative way of phrasing it
Quinneapolis
when we were already arguing about whether or not a character being referred to consistently as they/them by their friends, family, and creator is "ambiguous" and therefore an infitation to misgender them
Quinneapolis
and then this fucko wanders in to deliver their snowgrave takes in the most unpleasant way possible
Snowdrops ミ☆
✶ 天才的なIDOL様!
normal person way to say this: i think the snowgrave route comments on this by intentionally making the player complicit in forcing these two queer characters into traditional gender roles in the way greater fandom discussion often does to queer characters
✶ 天才的なIDOL様!
unhinged way to say this: whatever the fuck this was
Rama
Like heteronormativity/cisnormativity as horror is a definite thing, I was just talking on a different discord about Utena and that this morning but uhhhhhhhhhhhh room reading, dude
thetaClysm
so what we actually have here is someone who's graduated from the twitter school of take-phrasing
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