You're Quinner
thinking about anime queerbaiting
You're Quinner
there was a thing $windle clau$ was talking about a while ago that's stuck in my head
You're Quinner
of like
You're Quinner
on one hand, anime queerbaiting sucks and should stop
You're Quinner
but on the other hand
You're Quinner
the ambiguous romantic narratives you get in queerbaity shit are often so much more interesting than what you get in actual LGBT anime
You're Quinner
they put so much effort into making the gay attraction ambiguous that they end up writing really complex character dynamics instead
the grink
...i'm not sure which side of the line the average precure sits on here
You're Quinner
gay anime: "I like a girl... but I am a girl! We go to school"
You're Quinner
bait anime: "I need you to tell me who to kill so that I can be of use to you. I've never known unconditional love so I'll become your tool in order to convince myself that I'm not alone."
AzureChrysanthemum
Anime can be a bit more ambiguous too since there are in some cases active intent to portray a queer relationship but issues with censors with the broadcast standards and all that
You're Quinner
weird and fucked up! compelling! just do that and let them kiss at the end
AzureChrysanthemum
I think we've broadened "Queer Baiting" as a term to just include "things that seem kinda queer but don't commit" which I don't always think is accurate considering how coy even American media still has to be and we're one of the more progressive media landscapes for queer rep
You're Quinner
and what code geass had me thinking about recently
You're Quinner
is that you can make straight ships really compelling by just writing them like this
You're Quinner
Lelouch/CC is this weird ambiguous messy bullshit and it owns
You're Quinner
it has the same kind of chaotic mess energy as lulu/suzaku
You're Quinner
I don't even know what my thesis statement is
You're Quinner
I think anime trained us wrong, as a joke
You're Quinner
I'm going to fall in hate with another enby and then die to save the solar system for their sake
AzureChrysanthemum
I mean Kaguya-sama's whole pitch concept was "what if a Romcom... but DEATH NOTE"
You're Quinner
yes and it rules
AzureChrysanthemum
Het relationships CAN be plenty compelling you just have to not phone it in
You're Quinner
romance is often so by the numbers
You're Quinner
that when someone puts in an ounce of effort it's shocking
You're Quinner
fictional romance I should say
kaylin
YES, exactly!
You're Quinner
put a curse on his heart so that if he ever says "I love you" out loud he explodes, then turn it into gay social commentary
You're Quinner
like
You're Quinner
art is born from limitation
You're Quinner
and theh censorship-enforced limitation of "they can't say they love each other outu loud"
You're Quinner
expands the space those relationships get to play in massively
You're Quinner
as the edges bleed into other types of dynamics
You're Quinner
and it accidentally makes the gay relationships really engaging instead of nonexistent
You're Quinner
eitiher they played themselves or I played myself
You're Quinner
maybe both
Princess Emily
this all actually makes a lot of sense
Doctor Ansem
Huuuuh
Princess Emily
but also I personally hate the kind of fans who can then willfully ignore everything because it's not explicit and then yell at other people because their relationship is totally like a sibling's you know
Princess Emily
i hate them so much
You're Quinner
yes those people are hateful idiots
You're Quinner
and like to be clear, it IS bad that they have to write it like this
You're Quinner
but sometimes you get really interesting shit out of it as a byproduct
kaylin
I feel like a lot of romances in media don't put the work in, they always feel like they're just there because "well, you gotta have a romance", so you never get the characters putting the work in
You're Quinner
we were all GRIPPED by that rugby anime in crunchyroulette because it was the most compelling romcom dynamic we'd ever seen
You're Quinner
it could be that because it wasn't strictly a romance, it was a sports anime about a tall shy boy and a short chaos gremlin
kaylin
especially hetero romances, those are full on "he was a boy she was a girl can I be any more obvious?"
You're Quinner
Will Wight made it work by having the characters just interact with each other like people for like eight books
Echo
Yeah, just giving the characters time to develop as people and form a genuine mutual respect for each other goes a long way.
BWAAAAAH!
I've gone on the record of being a big fan or relationships where it's super unclear what exactly their relationship IS
$windle clau$
it's really a dilemma
$windle clau$
i don't like to be queerbaited but i am also always the first one putting it in my mouth
bluecanary
i once did a con presentation on "queerbaiting"/ship goggles/"coding" in utena which is an anime thats juuuust old enough to be very removed from modern ideas of acceptable tv queerness
bluecanary
obviously: it isnt baiting
bluecanary
obviously: in the movie they kiss with tongue
bluecanary
in the show: the mangaka said shed walk out if utena and anthy were romantically involved
bluecanary
in the show: you can still completely tell
BWAAAAAH!
the mangaka said what?
bluecanary
yap
bluecanary
in the manga utena and touga are endgame, akio and anthy are consensual, and no gay stuff
Princess Emily
yeah that's why the manga is, you know, bad
BWAAAAAH!
BWAAAAAH!
bluecanary
i have mixed feelings. on one hand yipes. on the other hand it is still explicitly by word of author a story about the roles women are forced into in society, how women that step out it are punished, how that forcing harms both women and men, and how cycles of gender essentialism are poisonous. which, rad, i do like that
bluecanary
i think she also came around to utena/anthy
bluecanary
but the point is like.... sometimes
they can't
bluecanary
we don't know whats up backstage
bluecanary
sometimes they're not fucking with you they literally cant, but your ship goggles are still valid because the artist is in there making hand signals to indicate theyre being held hostage
bluecanary
fascinating stuff. restriction sometimes breeds much much more compelling creativity, i agree with u quinn
the grink
yeah I dunno about how she's changed her stance since then but Chiho Saito was incredibly "let ladies do whatever they want but also romance should be het" in her other works (kanon and first girl both come to mind, and the former also has weird incest implications by the end)
the grink
Ikuhara is a bit more open about wlw in general but also, uh, veers close to fetishizing it sometimes I feel? that might just be me overanalyzing things tho
You're Quinner
I don't presume to know what Ikuhara is thinking, ever
You're Quinner
I just suspect he has a foot thing
the grink
that's fair
the grink
both statements, i mean
Princess Emily
he has a---
Princess Emily
no i don't wanna know
the grink
it's not as obvious as quentin tarantino's
the grink
there's just a lot of. suspicious shots throughout his works
You're Quinner
too bad
https://images.plurk.com/66o6nLfitws5ilEKCgbsk5.png https://images.plurk.com/RndVI51zgV72hdh9fnTc.png https://images.plurk.com/6toaRReCo1tCawEhaphLX.png https://images.plurk.com/14w2zziLWsj4sXlzqObPNo.png https://images.plurk.com/4gp73WgU0b9rjKwYkv4sAN.png
You're Quinner
https://images.plurk.com/w7245eIQAFqO8HFLULGUx.png
the grink
okay no it's closer to tarantino than i remembered
the grink
a few of those i hadn't seen before and wish i still hadn't
Princess Emily
https://images.plurk.com/7CPAWOUNmHW9yubVBJUvUR.png
bluecanary
did you guys hear tarantino is doing a sherlock holmes movie
bluecanary
he heard the game was a foot
Princess Emily
https://images.plurk.com/3zjO7wZVSgqKuaENZzYNcv.png
bluecanary
載入新的回覆