Quinn Angstrom
Another dark souls plurk about Easy Mode, which I'm finally starting to see in a more nuanced light and I want to try to articulate
Quinn Angstrom
The question always is
Quinn Angstrom
"should dark souls have an easy mode"
Quinn Angstrom
and that's actually a very complex question
Quinn Angstrom
the best answer to which might be another question:
Quinn Angstrom
What would easy mode be?
Quinn Angstrom
The actual experience of dark souls is incredibly intricate
Quinn Angstrom
It's not a game like Sekiro, that goes 'here's the skillset, master it or die'
Quinn Angstrom
there's no one skillset to dark souls
Quinn Angstrom
there's a hundred ways to play it, and there's a hundred aspects of any run that might be easier or harder from player to player
Quinn Angstrom
so when someone says, dark souls is too hard
Quinn Angstrom
what are they saying? it's not easy to tell
Quinn Angstrom
are they having trouble with the narrow band of allowed mistakes before the game kills them?
Quinn Angstrom
the persistence required to fight a boss 80 times?
Quinn Angstrom
the focus to keep doing things right for a long-ass fight?
Quinn Angstrom
each one is different, the difference isn't apparent at a glance, and each one would require different changes
Quinn Angstrom
but like...
Quinn Angstrom
the changes required to fix each of many different woes that might plague any given player
Quinn Angstrom
are generally there, in the game
Quinn Angstrom
it gives you so many different tools
Quinn Angstrom
if you make a lot of mistakes in boss fights, you can wear huge heavy armor and pump your vitality until you can eat a few hits safely and rally back
Quinn Angstrom
if you don't have the reflexes to handle the pace of combat, learn magic and change it completely
Quinn Angstrom
the process of a playthrough of dark souls
Quinn Angstrom
is in finding out how to turn on easy mode, for you
Quinn Angstrom
because the game has a million tools for you to play with, and somewhere out there is one that will make what you are doing right now easier
Quinn Angstrom
so I think my final stance is
Quinn Angstrom
I don't think dark souls would be ruined by an easy mode
Quinn Angstrom
but I also don't know what it would have to look like
Quinn Angstrom
and easy mode, to various extents for various players, exists in the game
Quinn Angstrom
and that pvp still sucks
AzureChrysanthemum
Here's what would get me to actually play these games: Difficulty meters for several factors so you can tune down (or up) things like enemy speed, health, and damage
Quinn Angstrom
other addendum: Sekiro should have an easy mode
Quinn Angstrom
that's a no brainer for me
Quinn Angstrom
yeah the way to do it wouldn't just be an easy mode it'd be like
Quinn Angstrom
a suite of assist features
Quinn Angstrom
that let you tailor the experience
Quinn Angstrom
I might have enjoyed the last act of DS3 more if there was a bar where i could turn enemy aggression down so they attack less relentlessly
Quinn Angstrom
I just couldn't find any openings
Quinn Angstrom
Sekiro is so frustrating compared to the other fromsoft games because it takes AWAY this toolbox
Quinn Angstrom
you have a couple mildly useful side toys, and then you have your sword
Quinn Angstrom
you can't level grind meaningfully
Quinn Angstrom
you just have to use the sword right to win
Quinn Angstrom
that's a much simpler experience, and one where you could just tweak some numbers and call it easy mode
Ken
I am only qualified to speak on Elden Ring but I feel like its difficulty being where it is feels right.

The first thing I think of with that is things like the Tree Sentinel and Margit being the deterrents they are would not be as such if you could tune that down. You’d have to design it completely differently.
Ken
Because you can just come back an hour later and break both over your knee
Ken
SoP, as much as I enjoy it, is my least favorite kind of difficulty scaling - in either direction - where they only change the numbers and I feel like something as. Deliberate as Elden Ring wouldn’t be satisfied with just doing that, when I can just come back with the power of god and anime on my side.
Ken
Admittedly NG+ just Makes The Number Bigger but that’s more of an additive extra thing than like the main event
Villain
AzureChrysanthemum : https://images.plurk.com/wMm1L4Zlgsa8to8b8gWcV.jpg something like this?
AzureChrysanthemum
Yep!
AzureChrysanthemum
The core conceit of these games does interest me in the sort of "build whatever feels good and have fun fights" but the barrier to entry is way too high for my free time and patience
pastel ranma
With Dark Souls and subsequently Elden Ring I think one way to pursue is to copy the "God Mode" present in Hades
pastel ranma
With each death resulting in boosts that accumulate with each death.
pastel ranma
So you still have the vibe of "die and try again" but it can be less frustrating as you get boosts to your damage immediately rather than grinding it out
Quinn Angstrom
Stranger of Paradise is a great example of how Easy Mode could go wrong
Quinn Angstrom
it just makes the game more forgiving without making it much easier
Quinn Angstrom
so I'm just bumbling my way through these lightspeed deathbattle boss fights, making a hundred mistakes
Quinn Angstrom
and then sort of awkwardly limping along
Quinn Angstrom
it's like a rhythm game where lower difficulties affect life loss but not beatmap
BattroidBattery
Dark Souls has an easy mode it's called running straight to caelid and picking up the meteor staff and rock throw spell
Bloodededeborne
I wonder if the difference in difficulty for Soulsborne or Elden Ring is actually knowledge.
Bloodededeborne
Like, would your average player pick up the random shit they need for an easy, broken build by accident?
Bloodededeborne
I know I had a hard time with Elden Ring anyway until I learned to block counter and parry
Quinn Angstrom
I think that also ties into the cultural context of dark souls
Quinn Angstrom
which is that they're meant to be soft-cooperative games
Quinn Angstrom
not in the sense that you summon allies
Quinn Angstrom
but in the sense that the community figures it out together
Quinn Angstrom
schoolyard kids comparing notes on the water temple in OOT
Quinn Angstrom
writ large
BattroidBattery
yeah, to me the most amazing thing about Elden Ring release
Quinn Angstrom
that's why Messages are a thing
BattroidBattery
was the number of people I know who didn't make much use of wikis or youtube or whatever but did share knowledge on an ad-hoc basis through smaller communities
Quinn Angstrom
they're deliberately unreliable information sharing
BattroidBattery
or, yeah, the message system
ғᴏxʏᴍᴏʀᴏɴ
Fort, night
EsperBot
Could this be a dog?
Quinn Angstrom
as you read messages, you develop a skill for separating the false rumors from the useful ones and jokes
ғᴏxʏᴍᴏʀᴏɴ
you don't have the right, o, you don't have the right
Quinn Angstrom
if you see wall -> message -> another message, there's no reason to even bother checking that wall
Quinn Angstrom
it's not a hidden passage
magnet
up,
dog?
penis bacon
Something tells me that Miyazaki is a huge fan of and/or incredibly nostalgic for Tower of Druaga. A lot of Dark Souls's design choices are, like... a lot of it is Quarter Muncher hustle, but it's teaching you to get savvy to the grift instead of taking it all at face value?
Quinn Angstrom
possible
Quinn Angstrom
the big secret of dark souls is that it does, in fact, want you to win
pastel ranma
Miyazaki has also admitted to be a masochist
penis bacon
yeah. a conversation i was having elsewhere keyed me in to the fact that the awful "git gud" culture was omnipresent around arcades in the US though, which was the line I needed to draw between point A to point B, I think
BF
I can’t find a good screenshot for it, but I keep imagining that wall -> message -> another message thing
BF
with the caption “Truth Coming Out of Her Well to Shame Mankind”
Quinn Angstrom
hahaha
Quinn Angstrom
liar ahead
RobotApocalypse
i've said it before but i think difficulty settings should come in a minimum of 3 different options:
- How hard is it for you to die
- How easy is it for your enemies to die
- Challenge difficulty (depending on the game that could mean less aggro enemies, simpler boss attack patterns, more forgiving platforming, more abundant resources, etc)
RobotApocalypse
ideally 3 would break out into more nuanced accessibility options but if you're just gonna do simple easy/medium/hard difficulties, that should be your minimum
RobotApocalypse
it sounds like Stranger of Paradise decided their difficulty modes would only adjust 1 - make you harder to kill, change nothing else
Quinn Angstrom
1 and 2
Quinn Angstrom
and a BIT of 3 but only in kind of specific abstract ways
Quinn Angstrom
on casual unblockable attacks can be blocked, they change how MP generation works in ways I can't really detect any meaningful difference
Quinn Angstrom
but mostly just numbers up/down
RobotApocalypse
yeah, that's a bad difficulty adjustment
RobotApocalypse
ultimately i think the main flaw of a catch-all "easy mode" is that different people are looking for different things
RobotApocalypse
like, in Ghost of Tsushima, i started out on easy and then had to bump it up to normal because fights were ending too fast for me to have fun playing around with all the combat tools the game gave me
RobotApocalypse
my preference would be for normal enemy difficulty but i am harder to kill
RobotApocalypse
anyway i think a split like that would probably work for a dark souls easy mode too
RobotApocalypse
you could keep the skill wall while making it a little easier for some people to climb
oh i'm scary
truthfully Elden Ring's "there are a thousand fully intended ways to be a cheating bastard" approach is like
oh i'm scary
for me, for my use case
oh i'm scary
a pretty much note-perfect accessibility solution for Fromsoft
Quinn Angstrom
I love elden ring's difficulty curve until right near the end when you're pushing on its limits
Quinn Angstrom
the combination of there being ten solutions to every encounter with the open world go anywhere structure
Quinn Angstrom
is so choice
oh i'm scary
it's exactly what I wanted so fucking bad from Sekiro
oh i'm scary
just the ability to try something different when Stare Boss Down And Deflect 90,000 Attacks Perfectly isn't working
Quinn Angstrom
kill ingeniously
oh i'm scary
I'm on my third character in Elden Ring and it's also my third completely, fundamentally different build and playstyle that I came up with by myself that makes me frequently go hehehehe
EsperBot
The fact that it’s actually possible to kill all bosses in the game without swinging a weapon once, by just summoning some buddies and then casting healing spells on them
EsperBot
(There’s some bosses where this is more challenging than others of course)
oh i'm scary
playthrough 1: use incantations and weapon arts liberally to achieve super high DPS with multiple different damage types
oh i'm scary
playthrough 2: dual-wielding bleed twinblades for maximum possible bleed buildup
oh i'm scary
playthrough 3: heavy weapon with a fast guard counter and a crit bonus
oh i'm scary
I haven't taken 3 very far yet but they all feel so strong
oh i'm scary
anyway I've always felt a little uncomfortable with the "you're for it or against it" feel of Dark Souls Easy Mode conversations because it is complicated
oh i'm scary
like I'm very glad that I beat the Souls games I've beaten in the form that they are in
oh i'm scary
but like
oh i'm scary
if that form was labeled Normal Mode
oh i'm scary
and there was an Easy Mode available
oh i'm scary
I would almost certainly not have beaten Normal Mode, or at least not until after the fact and I wouldn't have liked it as much
oh i'm scary
and broadly speaking I don't think I would have liked Easy Mode as much either
oh i'm scary
99% of the time I think a thing that is optional cannot hurt a game but the concept of challenge has an inherent adversarial component that makes having to opt into it weird for some personality types, e.g. mine
Ken
wait.
Ken
...
Ken
can you heal summoned ashes
oh i'm scary
I think with incantations, yeah
Ken
HOLY FUCK
Ken
for some weird reason I thought that wouldn't work and just. Have only seen it mentioned in this plurk for the first time.
Ken
I DON'T KNOW WHY I THOUGHT THAT, NOW LOOKING BACK
Ken
well my new build is Dex/Int so that won't be happening but good to keep in mind for the future
oh i'm scary
there are probably some weapon arts that can do it
pastel ranma
Yep, someone managed to do a summon-only run using healing incantations to heal summons. (This was not particularly easy the further you get into the game)
pastel ranma
and yeah there's at least one weapon art that contains a self-heal/vampirism that works for your summon
oh i'm scary
Holy Ground can go on shields and gives the group regen + a defense buff
oh i'm scary
honestly I feel like there are so many ways to stack regen effects you might be able to make a pretty ridiculous build around it
oh i'm scary
that one greatshield, the Physick effect, any of several incantations...
EsperBot
There's also Warming Stones but that's a very weak heal
Ken
I have that one regen talisman you can get which is really weak but always on so it cuts down on my incidental healing a lot
Ken
(I have also survived on single digit HP while wearing it once so)
oh i'm scary
yeah that one too, I forgot to list it
oh i'm scary
and you can apparently stack a personal body buff regen incantation with a group buff? I don't know, I had to look that up and somebody said so anyway
oh i'm scary
so that's like... five sources
oh i'm scary
that you can overlap
oh i'm scary
and there might be armor pieces too come to think of it
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