Quinn Angstrom
[vtubers] I'm seeing a lot of sense in putting to rest the concept of 'forbidden knowledge'
Quinn Angstrom
advantages of keeping the true identities of vtubers a dedicated secret that it's taboo to discuss:
Quinn Angstrom
- supports the kayfabe
Quinn Angstrom
disadvantages:
Quinn Angstrom
- if a corporation decides to give a vtuber the axe, you can't find them again to support the talent behind them after they're gone
Quinn Angstrom
- when the corporation gives really vague reasons for firing someone who's going through so much stress that she can't eat or sleep, you only get their side of the story
EsperBot
Yeah fuck this, basically
Quinn Angstrom
- when a vtuber is fired, the corp owns the character so all her fame and popularity are zero help to her trying to start elsewhere
EsperBot
The kayfabe is paper-thin to begin with
Quinn Angstrom
we don't hide the names of actors in movies in order to protect our immersion
Quinn Angstrom
vtuber identities should be public knowledge
Wild Child
i remember seeing something about how they'd basically call their irl self their "roommate"?
Quinn Angstrom
I've never seen that
Quinn Angstrom
all the Forbidden Knowledge veil does, functionally, is give the companies more control overtheir talents
✶ 天才的なIDOL様！
the idea that anyone should have to sign a FUCKING NDA to pretend to be an anime girl online just. blows my mind. i cannot even fathom justifying it
Princess Emily
plus it starts all sort of weird drama
Quinn Angstrom
actual anime characters are introduced with their voice actor's name right under the character's name
Quinn Angstrom
vtubers shouldn't be any different
Princess Emily
fans get harassed for mentioning certain topics, vtubers get harassed for things like showing any part of their irl body, breaking kayfabe too much, etc etc
Princess Emily
there are indie vtubers who have no qualm showing their irl face and then get told off by fans
Princess Emily
Calli would probably join them if there weren't explicit rules against it - her kayfabe is paper thin as is. I'm actually wondering how she's taking this on the level of "oh shit this could be me next"
Quinn Angstrom
I know some people are emotionally invested in the system as-is but the Rushia situation shows that it's just not worth it
Quinn Angstrom
it needs to change
✶ 天才的なIDOL様！
the system as it stood was only worth having when it served to separate performers from their on-stream personas
Quinn Angstrom
I tried to watch some Ollie stuff this morning and after Ollie said the word 'idol' I closed the tab, I just can't deal with this shit right now
Princess Emily
maintaining complete anonymity for your workers is a great way to ensure those workers don't have a voice
Quinn Angstrom
Cover took a new space where female content creators could be something new and fun where they could use anonymity to act outside of the old expectations of behavior and turned it into Idols 2
Quinn Angstrom
they already had a system that makes them consistent profits so they wedged the new system into the old one
Wild Child
fuck the idol industry
Quinn Angstrom
"Nobody sexualizes our idols except for US" - idol management
✶ 天才的なIDOL様！
i've been honestly so disgusted by cover ever since their dogshit support (or lack thereof lmao) of coco when she was being harassed so this is just. disappointing but completely unsurprising
Quinn Angstrom
I'm unhappy about it but I think I may have to stop following all hololive vtubers
Quinn Angstrom
if anyone figures out who Ollie is throw me a PM so I can support them elsewhere
Dragomorph
yeah i think there's a reason I started preferring the indies
Quinn Angstrom
just once
Quinn Angstrom
just ONE TIME
Quinn Angstrom
I would like to have a problem with something I like that doesn't end up coming back to either sex crimes or capitalism
Quinn Angstrom
or both
Quinn Angstrom
it just
Quinn Angstrom
it really sucks that I reached the point of no longer being able to support hololive personally
Quinn Angstrom
the DAY AFTER subscribing to a nonbinary hololive member as support
Quinn Angstrom
if nothing else the decision to go anonymous or not should be up to the talent, not the agency
Quinn Angstrom
and not the fandom
Quinn Angstrom
Rushia's talent put up a new youtube channel that currently only contains a video called "tst" that's 11 seconds of a blank screen
Quinn Angstrom
it has eight thousand dislikes
GAY TENNA?
you can still see dislikes?
Quinn Angstrom
there's a chrome plugin that un-hides them
Quinn Angstrom
Return YouTube Dislike
GAY TENNA?
ohh
GAY TENNA?
thanks
Quinn Angstrom
it's really funny that this works imo
Quinn Angstrom
how lazy was that updage youtube
Quinn Angstrom
update*
GAY TENNA?
one of the new ninisani boys has an nb person behind him but i don't know which one because the person i spoke to had the forbidden knowledge but didn't tell me the new identity
GAY TENNA?
so as soon as i find out who i'll let you know
Quinn Angstrom
please do
GAY TENNA?
waiting on their song to drop because i think i'll be able to figure it out then, mostly he was a singer before
Quinn Angstrom
I found another vtuber who's suspected to be the same talent as Ollie, but the account is retired, so that's not much
Princess Emily
yeah Ollie was a vtuber, retired with hololive, same as most others who were active vtubers before hololive
pastel ranma
Found a twitter account that'd allegedly Rushia's actress but my lack of knowledge about Japanese makes me uncertain
pastel ranma
みけねこ@ ぼっち (@95rn16) | Twitter So if anybody wants to do some internet sleuthing to see if this is legit I'd like to know I just do not have the spoons to search beyond this point
Princess Emily
that's the one I was told is her account
Quinn Angstrom
it is yeah
pastel ranma
Ooh okay then it's good it looks like she's starting a new youtube channel then at least.
Quinn Angstrom
so I'm hearing more info on this and, like... it doesn't make Cover look better it just makes the situation more fraught
Quinn Angstrom
and Rushia's firing looking... still stupid and bad but for slightly different reasons?
Quinn Angstrom
my current understanding of the sequence of events is
Quinn Angstrom
- Mafumafu discord ping
Quinn Angstrom
- Outrage starts
Quinn Angstrom
- Rushia contacts Korekore, someone she knew from pre-hololive who's basically a Japanese drama youtuber, in order to get her name cleared
Quinn Angstrom
- Provides screenshots to establish that Mafumafu is just in an apex clan with her and not her boyfriend
Quinn Angstrom
- Korekore makes videos showing the screenshots and reporting on the drama
Quinn Angstrom
- Rushia slipped up when censoring the screenshots and they accidentally revealed personal information about one of her genmates
Quinn Angstrom
- Cover fires Rushia for "doxxing" her genmate
Princess Emily
that's what people have figured, though there's no official word on what actually sparked the "she broke NDA" bit
Princess Emily
since people are defending Cover by saying "oh I don't think that's why they fired her"
Princess Emily
I don't know why people want to defend cover so much but it's out there
Quinn Angstrom
even if it is
EsperBot
People really want to be credulous
Quinn Angstrom
I don't think that 'accidentally enabled a third party to doxx someone while under life-threatening levels of stress caused by a hate mob sending her death threats'
Quinn Angstrom
is really a valid firing offense
Princess Emily
agreed
magnet
ah is that what it was?
magnet
man that fuckin sucks
yousoro!
She also did a twitlive stream as her other identity that apparently sounded suicidal (like it ended with "sayonara" and rushing wind so people were legit worried she'd jumped off a building or something)
yousoro!
I don't know if that had any affect on cover's decision, just adding it to the timeline
Quinn Angstrom
I did see some people responding to her last tweet like "thank god you're still alive"
yousoro!
yeah
yousoro!
and idk for me, it's not so much about "defending cover" because hey, they're just a corporation and fuck those guys, but it just doesn't make sense to me that they'd go to this extreme for no good reason, just from the perspective of them as a heartless corporation
yousoro!
if all you wanted was rushia out of your hair, then graduate her, have a nice ceremony, do another round of her merch sales, go out with some goodwill
yousoro!
It's right before 3rd Fest so any merch with her/her name on it needs to be reprinted, the weiss kreuz set with her probably needs to be reprinted, you've hugely damaged your reputation, probably hurt your reputation with some of your other talents she was close to, made yourself look like the villain, can't even use prior content to monetize
yousoro!
and with all that, it was still somehow the "better option"
yousoro!
so idk, capitalism is inherently amoral and i don't blame anyone for being suspicious of cover
yousoro!
it just doesn't make sense to me even from a coldly capitalistic rationale
Princess Emily
corporations are not inherently coldly rational at all times
Princess Emily
if their executives decide "we want this scandal over a soon as possible" then that's what happens, even if it's not the coldly calculated maximum profits move
pastel ranma
Yeah businesses, like any organization, aren't literal cold machines. They make mistakes or act irrationally on a near-constant basis.
yousoro!
That's true, and as I said, I don't blame anyone for being suspicious of cover
yousoro!
it just doesn't make sense to me
Princess Emily
if anything, corporations are MORE often short sighted over looking at the big picture
tutorials georg
You make valid points. I had always had a low opinion of people hunting for and sharing forbidden knowledge because a lot of the ones I saw were spamming their comments on one identity with the other and/or using it for harassment.
tutorials georg
See: pro-China trolls shopping Kson's face onto gore after the Taiwan incident, or the circumstances around Aloe quitting.
Quinn Angstrom
yeah, as long as it's a secret, it can be used as a weapon
Quinn Angstrom
either by trolls or by the agency
tutorials georg
But you have a point that finding their other identity will help fans support them in times of need and keep them less dependent on Cover.
Quinn Angstrom
it's not a clear cut thing, like there are reasons a vtuber might consciously decide to stay anonymous
Quinn Angstrom
but that should be their decision
Quinn Angstrom
(for example, vtubers who use the space to experiment with gender presentation without having to commit to it in meatspace)
yousoro!
i always assumed it was some level of protection tbh
yousoro!
like I remember ame saying something like
yousoro!
she doesn't want to ever even talk about the weather, because that could be used to locate her
yousoro!
and when you get a big audience, it's goign to invariably come with some real scary people
yousoro!
but your point about enforced anonymity being exploitable is very valid
✶ 天才的なIDOL様！
the thing is, that forced anonymity is a contributing factor in people getting so psycho about vtubers, especially hololive
✶ 天才的なIDOL様！
it dehumanises them and reduces them to the 2d anime character they play
yousoro!
hmm. I didn't think about it that way. Certainly could be the case!
✶ 天才的なIDOL様！
not to say it can't get parasocial weirdos even without the enforced anonymity, of course, but it sure doesn't help
tutorials georg
That's true. Look at how chat freaked out at the reflection in the mixer in Kiara's last cooking stream, because fans knew that there were people who would screenshot that for her face.
Quinn Angstrom
the fucking internet detective shit is so ridiculous
yousoro!
tutorials georg
: which is really weird, because like
yousoro!
Keekihime called herself kiara by accident while streaming lol
yousoro!
she's one of the ones whose former self is very much not a secret
yousoro!
but yeah, the internet detective stuff is really, really dumb
Quinn Angstrom
like people accusing two people of living together because screenshots of their apartments included the same brand off silverware
Quinn Angstrom
touch grass
yousoro!
idk, I'd be curious how it compares for people who stream as their real selves vs vtubers, my inclination is to assume that any female streamer is going to have some psycho parasocial shit going on but claire could very easily be right
yousoro!
I think the point you made in another thread (Hannah's? i dont remember) about the "original sin" here being Cover bringing idol mentality to streaming is spot on though
yousoro!
like even if Cover is unambiguously 100% in the right to do this (and that's a big ol' if), the fact is that they did sort of create this mentality in the first place
Quinn Angstrom
that's the root of the issue
yousoro!
or at least, encourage it, even if they didn't create it. like, I'm sure they weren't the first to do concerts or w/e
yousoro!
but they exploded the concept
Quinn Angstrom
idol culture is awful and Cover is pouring it all over youtube
yousoro!
like idk, I'm not nearly versed enough in japanese culture to say for sure, I know there's bleed over beyond strictly "idols" to seiyuu/actress stuff too
yousoro!
(see: kanata's despair at her favorite actress getting married)
yousoro!
but that does feel like the root of it
Quinn Angstrom
the core grossness of it to me is the idea that the person exists for public consumption 24/7
Quinn Angstrom
their entire life needs to conform to the expectations of what an idol is
Quinn Angstrom
when an entertainer is not actively entertaining you they shouldn't owe you shit
yousoro!
idk, that feels like a problem with broader streamer culture, not just idols or even vtubers
yousoro!
i think you're onto something where like the "identity" is commmodified though
yousoro!
but I know a lot of streamers have talked about the pressure to stream every day, to always be making content, or else you fall behind
yousoro!
idk, it's weird and fucked up and parasocial
yousoro!
I don't think anyone feels a personal close bond with ninja or whoever
yousoro!
that said, I'm not disagreeing that you could be onto something, and I certainly don't think the idol mentality helps at all
yousoro!
I'm just wondering if it's symptomatic of something larger
tutorials georg
ugh, yeah
tutorials georg
someone in the key discord is whining that anyone standing by rushia or saying she did nothing wrong is a "clueless westerner" and gachikoi "can't be blamed for feeling betrayed" and i'm kind of going off
tutorials georg
people are gross
yousoro!
what the fuck
yousoro!
that's so awful
tutorials georg
ikr. groans
tutorials georg
thankfully most of the people i've seen are more sensible
Quinn Angstrom
all the people talking about betrayal and gachikoi pride just make me want to grab their head and yell
Quinn Angstrom
She Wasn't Gonna Fuck You
yousoro!
having an oshi can be fun but like
yousoro!
there's fucking boundaries
tutorials georg
ugh, yeah
tutorials georg
like, if I saw my oshi irl (somehow), i'd probably just not do anything, because that's what you should do. don't bother them.
yousoro!
like my Love Live oshi is Shuka because she voices my favorite character and I love her pep and energy. when she has a new song come out I'm like "yay, new Shuka song" but also like
yousoro!
she's her own person with her own life and owes me, someone who likes her and her music, nothing lmao
yousoro!
have a favorite! favorites are good! don't be a fucking weirdo about it!
tutorials georg
The rest of gen 3 made an official statement. I haven't brought myself to watch it yet. But they must be going through a lot losing their genmate, and Rushia herself must be feeling that much worse.
yousoro!
it's pretty hard to listen to, marine and pekora hurt my heart
yousoro!
it sounds like they knew in advance though, at least a little
tutorials georg
that scans with what i've seen on twitter, most jp members seemed to have been prepared while en and id (and kanata, who's been on hiatus recovering from covid) were blindsided
tutorials georg
calli and ollie (as the other members of holodeath) and the other gen 3 members seem to be the worst off
yousoro!
I just hope they stay friends with her after this
yousoro!
she needs it
dragon time
It's fucked up that this happens to your co worker and then your job is to be fun and jokey on camera with the same fans who made this happen to them
Princess Emily
not to mention being unable to say shit about the company
tutorials georg
yeah