Ziri✖O
[Okami] this might be petty but the sheer IRRITATION I feel when people call Shiranui male
Ziri✖O
OR AMATERASU SHIRABUI'S DAUGHTER???
corpse bride
??? what?
Ziri✖O
Clearly someone wasn't paying attention when they played!!! 
corpse bride
people actually do this?
corpse bride
did they miss the whole time travel plot device and also that reincarnation is kind of a common trope in Japanese folklore?
Ziri✖O
RIGHT??? SHIRANUI IS A NICKNAME THE VILLAGERS GAVE HER!!! SHE'S THE SUN GODDESS YOU GUYS!!!! 
Ziri✖O
I'M GONNA LOSE MY SHIT!!!! 
Ziri✖O
Also me being cranky that First 4 Figures repeatedly misgendered her in their promo stream for the new statue which again, very silly, but that's my girl stop doing her dirty
corpse bride
shiranui literally means "unknown fire," it's basically what anyone would call a strange, glowing doggo deity
Ziri✖O
Also I'm definitely not going to be able to afford her but it's fine I don't have space for her anyways
corpse bride
i feel like it's basically because she lifts her leg to pee that, clearly, she is a boy doggo
Ziri✖O
/gently touches her shiny light-up solar flare and her cute awoo pose 
corpse bride
but also, like, even if she's in a boy doggo's body, she is still a girl
corpse bride
kami don't really give a shit about gender but still
Ziri✖O
Right??? Also, hilarious fact, but dominant lady wolves will lift their leg to pee too. So anyone thinking that that's how to tell her gender? Incorrect!!
Ziri✖O
This may not be a hill I'll die on but I'll yell about it SUPER LOUDLY
corpse bride
okay, i didn't actually know that about lady wolves irl but figured it's easier shorthand animation to show lifting a leg for peeing, so whatever
corpse bride
it ain't that deep, folks
hsumi
I blame Okamiden for muddying the lore.
corpse bride
i've only played Okamiden once, but i thought they made it pretty clear that Ammy is Chibi's mom, though?
Ziri✖O
The dumb facts I learned about wolves that I, someone who was Obsessed with wolves as a sproot, did not know but researched when I played Woof God Dog Mom are wild
hsumi
Since Okamiden outright calls Shiranui Chibi's grandfather, which is patently wrong.
corpse bride
oh, i must have totally missed that or just glossed over that entirely
hsumi
Okamiden got many canon details either outright wrong, or retconned them.
corpse bride
i wonder if it's more just a translation error in the EN edition rather than actually not fact-checking on that part, though?
hsumi
Okamiden also had a member of the Moon Tribe (who we have never heard of before, keep in mind) apparently working in Himiko's court for years, but when he meets Kurow, he comments about how happy he is to finally meet another of his people.
hsumi
AS IF WAKA HADN'T BEEN THERE FOR THE LAST 200 YEARS OR SO
Ziri✖O
But yes as an animated visual shorthand it very much makes more sense
corpse bride
or, y'know, Kaguya
hsumi
YEAH
hsumi
I have...issues with how Okamiden handled the continuity.
corpse bride
Waka I could kinda let slide since he's a slippery bastard and does what he wants, but Kaguya was literally kept prisoner in the Capital during the first game
corpse bride
like, i'm Fine with the thing with Okun not being Susano and Kushi's biological kid because didn't the devs outright state they were retconning that because they didn't know they were gonna make a sequel at the time and hadn't planned for it?
hsumi
It makes sense when you consider it had a completely different writer and team behind it, but there are things that were well-established by the first game that Okamiden just decided to ignore or trample over.
corpse bride
oh...... i didn't know they had a completely different writing team on it
Ziri✖O
OKAMIDEN IS A PIECE OF GARBAGE AND WE DO NOT SPEAK OF IT IN THIS HOUSE 
corpse bride
so that's why it kinda has that "fanfic sequel" feel to it
corpse bride
i mean, i liked SOME stuff about it?
hsumi
Yes.
Ziri✖O
OKAMIDEN WAS MADE AFTER CAPCOM REMOVED THE ORIGINAL CREATOR AND DISSOLVED CLOVER STUDIOS AND PURGED ALL THE RESOURCES
corpse bride
but mostly from a "oooh i know the origins of this piece of folklore, neat"
hsumi
Clover studios had already dissolved by that point, so Okamiden was entirely in-house Capcom.
corpse bride
ah....
Ziri✖O
NONE OF THE ESTABLISHED OR ORIGINAL LORE WAS RETAINED
hsumi
The former members of Clover went on to form Platinum Games.
corpse bride
okay, that's kinda shitty, actually
Ziri✖O
We do not speak of that here
Ziri✖O
Also I stopped playing Okamiden within ten minutes into the first dungeon or so because it was Terrible and so was the gameplay
Ziri✖O
I've been trying for ages to purge it from my mind
hsumi
But anyway, that's why people insist Shiranui is male and also Amaterasu's father; because the noncanon sequel said they were.
Ziri✖O
Sorry Okami is one of my sleeper hot buttons and mentioning Okamiden is what sets me screaming and waving my chainsaw like a Silent Hilm protagonist
corpse bride
that's kinda dumb but it still amazes me how little the average anime fan actually knows about Japanese mythology, so i shouldn't be surprised
corpse bride
like, i get that media can rewrite the old stories how they see fit, but the priest Yatsu literally says he sees "a radiant young women" when he sees Ammy's true form in the first game, so....... /SHRUG
Ziri✖O
But yeah when one of the first partners is a WESTERN MERMAID, when mermaids are already established in the lore frosted my cupcakes on top of all the other garbage they dumped on it the whole game just infuriated me
Ziri✖O
Like??? You meet!!! Mermaid royalty in Okami!!! There's so much they could have done!!!
Ziri✖O
HILARIOUS THERE WERE PLANS FOR A SEQUEL THAT CLOVER WANTED TO DO BUT NO
corpse bride
ehhhhh... hand waggles, i can kinda excuse that because technically the people of the dragon palace aren't necessarily classified as mermaids even in the old myths
hsumi
I mean I do tend to lean more toward Shiranui being marginally more masculine-presenting and usually use male pronouns when referring to that specific incarnation, but Amaterasu is foremost a god and can be whatever gender she damn well pleases.
Ziri✖O
No they
Ziri✖O
They outright say it
Ziri✖O
screams into a hole
hsumi
Treating Shiranui as a completely separate entity from Amaterasu is, however, completely wrong.
Ziri✖O
WHERE'S MY ARTBOOK I'M LOOKING THIS UP
corpse bride
okay, i believe you, it's been a while since i've actually played the game
corpse bride
but like, traditionally, in the mythology, the people of the dragon palace are not specifically referred to as mermaids, and the closest equivalent i can think of in European mythology is that they are basically like Underwater Fae that have ties to dragons
hsumi
What I mean is that I tend to view Shiranui the "body" as male, even if Amaterasu is a goddess. Because gods aren't limited by physical forms.
corpse bride
traditionally, the only thing separating mermaids and dragon people is that eating mermaid flesh makes humans immortal, while its specifically the eyes of dragons that grant immortality/special powers to humans who imbibe the elixer
hsumi
So if Ammy wants to have a male "vessel", there's nothing stopping her. Doesn't make her any less of a goddess.
Ziri✖O
Still even if that's the case she still uses femme pronouns
corpse bride
yeah, she and Issun always refer to her by female pronouns, other humans call her whatever based on how they perceive the normal doggo body
hsumi
Nonbinary Amaterasu ftw
Ziri✖O
Because you don't meet people who could commune with Shiranui until late in the game so you're only hearing about Original Woof God from villagers who only saw a shaggy white wolf prowling the hillsides
Ziri✖O
Until late game
prince alarming
I do remember villagers in the game calling Shiranui "he" but I always chocked that up to "I doubt they actually got close enough to check so generic male pronouns go"
Ziri✖O
Basically
prince alarming
but also like you said, clearly established in game that they are the same entity and celestial beings dgaf about gender so
hsumi
That and Japanese doesn't use gendered pronouns as often but it's hard to translate "that person" or similar into english without it sounding awkward.
prince alarming
the game booklet goes out of its way to never gender her but using some BS reason that always came across to me as "we don't want to make boys not play before even trying the game" because she's called goddess by 5763487489 people in the fucking game
corpse bride
yeah, basically all of that
corpse bride
English still defaults to "he" for unknown gender in a lot of situations, even with animals, like how we always go "good boy" to random doggos
corpse bride
but like that's a dumb hill to die on when trying to gender a deity that literally doesn't give a fuck about how humans perceive them
corpse bride
I like the nonbinary explanation myself, personally