LOVE☆STRUCK
[discourse] i cannot believe it is 2020 and we are still having this conversation and i dont even want to comment on it but it's what I woke up to
LOVE☆STRUCK
Japanese trans people: these characters are not representative of our experience and so while having a headcanon/au is ok please do not insist these characters were written to be trans

Westerners: but they are trans
LOVE☆STRUCK
Have all the aus and headcanons you want!!! But if Japanese trans people!!! Have literally said!!! Those characters DO NOT accurately represent them!!! Do not insist!! That they have to!!!
𝖒𝖚𝖗𝖉𝖊𝖗 𝖔𝖋 𝖖𝖗𝖔𝖜𝖘
LOVE☆STRUCK
It is okay for trans people to say "this character's portrayal does not represent me nor is it written with the intent to represent me"!! You can still headcanon whatever the fuck you want!!
𝖒𝖚𝖗𝖉𝖊𝖗 𝖔𝖋 𝖖𝖗𝖔𝖜𝖘
dear fandom: ppl in other cultures have different experiences and norms with gender
𝖒𝖚𝖗𝖉𝖊𝖗 𝖔𝖋 𝖖𝖗𝖔𝖜𝖘
pls listen to them as u would like to be listened to
LOVE☆STRUCK
But that doesn't make it right for you to say that anyone who DOESN'T accept those characters as trans is wrong WHEN FOR SOME TRANS PEOPLE IT IS INCREDIBLY OFFENSIVE TO THINK OF THESEE CHARACTERS AS TRANS
LOVE☆STRUCK
Like really I have no problem with headcanons or AUS but it's 100% valid for Japanese people to be like "that headcanon is offensive to me as a trans person actually living in Japan, where this canon is from" and you just gotta respect that!!!
unbound
I will admit I am pretty curious about the Japanese perspective on a character in a canon I recently got into tbh since I know there’s been a little discourse in the EN fandom
LOVE☆STRUCK
I wish I knew where to direct you, I only know what I know because of previous discourse where at least one Japanese trans woman was bullied off the internet for saying Chihiro isn't trans
unbound
OH YEAH DANGAN RONPA DISCOURSE IS BAD...........
LOVE☆STRUCK
Yeah and this is inspired by a person essentially saying IF YOU DENY THAT CHIHIRO AND NAOTO ARE TRANS YOU'RE WRONG
LOVE☆STRUCK
[Stares at the actual Japanese trans people who habe said for years that shit makes them uncomfortable while Actually Trans characters in Japanese media go ignored]
𝐭𝐬𝐯𝐢𝐞𝐭
yepp
Beans
dangan ronpa/persona discourse is........ Bad
LOVE☆STRUCK
Once again if you wanna have an AU where Naoto is trans go the fuck ahead

But they weren't written to be trans and it is completely okay for trans people to say "this is not it"
LOVE☆STRUCK
Especially when again. Yall stuck on Chihiro and Naoto WHEN CHARACTERS WHO WERE WRITTEN TO BE TRANS REP ACTUALLY EXIST
🌸Percsettia🌸
worse or on par with Grell discourse
🌸Percsettia🌸
?
tsuchinoko real
I hate that I know exactly what Twitter post this is about
unbound
these people never talk about ladiva and cagliostro granblue
LOVE☆STRUCK
tsuchinoko real : i saw it and i wanted to die i swear
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ALSO RIGHT. COME ON. TALK ABOUT LADIVA
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Or that babygirl Zombie!!
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What'd her name, Lilly??
tsuchinoko real
it didn't help that the OP started attacking other trans people disagreeing with them, like yikes
LOVE☆STRUCK
YEAH
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LIKE HOW DARE YOU ATTACK TRANS PEOPLE WHO ARE UNCOMFORTABLE WITH WHAT YOU'RE SAYING
LOVE☆STRUCK
Also in all fairness I have no idea how bad the grell discourse got but at least it seems people haven't brought it up as much as the Dangan/Persona discourse
LOVE☆STRUCK
People are OBSESSED with Chihiro and Naoto (who are good characters! I get it! But they aren't trans!) but ignore characters that are actually written to be trans rep
LOVE☆STRUCK
And as I recall there was some PRETTY ugly trans discourse about DR Sakura too
Dragons Dragons
Lily, yeah.
LOVE☆STRUCK
See!! People sleepin on Lily!
cataro yumenya
oooohhhhh y i k e s
Dragons Dragons
Hoshikawa Lily from Zombie Land Saga, whom you may know as the centre of some discourse from fall 2018 when she was revealed to be a canon trans girl, or as the girl from the "STFU TERF" meme that made it to the British Parliament as an exhibit.
Dragons Dragons
People slept on Stars Align, too...
tsuchinoko real
Lily is our perfect undead idol daughter
LOVE☆STRUCK
Lily stands up for her identity in canon and says loud and clear that she is a trans girl, and people S L E E P
corpse bride
I always viewed Naoto as non-binary or genderfluid or maybe GNC but definitely not trans
corpse bride
and I feel like some of this aggressive insistence on specific trans headcanons does sometimes border on non-binary erasure, but go off, I guess
LOVE☆STRUCK
I mean they're both for sure gender nonconforming!
corpse bride
basically, agreeing with the whole "you're entitled to your personal headcanons, just don't be an ass about it" sentiment
LOVE☆STRUCK
They are absolutely not conforming to their assigned gender roles lmao
corpse bride
I am curious as to what identity Chihiro is supposed to be written as, though!
LOVE☆STRUCK
And i think it is both NB and GNC erasure
LOVE☆STRUCK
Like it is 100% okay to be a cis person who does not conform to gender roles
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Being a man that dresses like a woman is 100% okay and valid and Chihiro's character isnt bad for not being trans????
LOVE☆STRUCK
Chihiro is a boy who was bullied so badly for not being manly that he found it easier to disguise himself as a girl
corpse bride
my ex was very attached to writing Jude Matthis from TOX as a trans guy, and she took offense when I basically said "that's cool, write what you love, but I personally view him as an effeminate GNC cis male because there is literally zero representation of that identity and I think that's how he's supposed to be written"
LOVE☆STRUCK
Chihiro honestly more represents the experience of a transman than a transwoman and trans women in Japan have stated repeatedly they do not feel Chihiro is indicative of the Japanese trans woman experience and instead is an example of how bad bullying can be in Japan
unbound
if anything chihiro reads more like a non-passing trans man even if that wasn’t the textual intent but go off- yes
corpse bride
okay, yeah, that makes sense, actually!
LOVE☆STRUCK
Insisting he MUST be a trans woman to be a valuable character not only steps on the feelings of those trans women but also shits on what his story WAS supposed to represent: the fact that bullying culture in Japan can be so bad it forces you to live as someone you aren't
corpse bride
that's actually really insightful wrt bullying in Japanese culture
LOVE☆STRUCK
I LOVE CHIHIRO AS A NON-PASSING TRANS MAN HEADCANONS NGL
LOVE☆STRUCK
Dangan Ronpa jumped the shark a liiiittle bit but at its core it was intended to be a commentary on bullying culture as well as the harsh education culture in Japan
corpse bride
also, a lot of these trans headcanons hinge on rigid binary presentation of trans people when there are trans women who dress butch and trans men who dress effeminately
LOVE☆STRUCK
And the idea that these kids have to Be Something ot be useful in society ever
LOVE☆STRUCK
YES
corpse bride
and as a non-binary person, that always kinda rubs me the wrong way
LOVE☆STRUCK
I personally think the insistence that Chihiro and Naoto are trans reinforces binary stereotypes
I think it's very limiting and personally offensive
corpse bride
trans people can dress however they like and are still the gender they identify as, just like cis and GNC folks
corpse bride
yeahhhhhhhh same
LOVE☆STRUCK
Chihiro enjoying the dresses he finds safety in doesn't mean he isnt a man!!
LOVE☆STRUCK
and like again if either of them being trans in that way makes you feel good, sure, do it
but you can have a trans headcanon without being like THIS IS HOW IT HAS TO BE AND YOU'RE TRANSPHOBIC IF YOU DISAGREE EVEN IF YOU'RE ALSO TRANS
corpse bride
^^^ this
corpse bride
trans headcanons are fun! but not if you act shitty to other people about it!
LOVE☆STRUCK
especially
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WHEN THE ORIGINAL WRITERS
LOVE☆STRUCK
DID NOT PUT IN THE EFFORT TO ACTUALLY MAKE THE CHARACTER TRANS
corpse bride
like I know we're all thirsty for representation, but don't shit on other people when they're looking for representation of a different kind
LOVE☆STRUCK
one of the things that gets me incensed with this insistence on this kind of thing is that it gives credit to people who did not do the work
LOVE☆STRUCK
(in this case the person was criticising the writers but usually it isn't the case)
LOVE☆STRUCK
like if it is a headcanon take credit for it. YOU interpreted this character as trans and did the work to make the story work. Not the actual writers.
LOVE☆STRUCK
the writers DID put in work for characters like Ladiva and Lily and yall be ignoring the shit out of that.
time stranger
oof i think about this kind of thing a lot because i've been reading a bunch of persona fan-content lately and like
time stranger
wrt naoto......
time stranger
here's a couple of things that are simultaneously true.
LOVE☆STRUCK
time stranger
1) naoto is written as a gnc girl responding to sexist pressure.
time stranger
2) naoto is often treated poorly within the narrative as a gnc girl responding to sexist pressure, because persona is often casually cruel to its characters who are female and/or gnc.
time stranger
3) naoto....related....content in p4 included some VERY uncomfortable material wrt trans men and srs, unnecessarily throwing trans men under the bus in pursuit of its statement about naoto.
time stranger
4) persona fans (or fancontent fans) have varying levels of comfort with and willingness to pretend that material didn't happen
time stranger
there were some intermediate points i was going to make but i'm in raid and someone started talking and they're gone now.
LOVE☆STRUCK
dysrg IT'S TOTALLY FINE
LOVE☆STRUCK
also yeah i feel like
atlus is also a special case wrt all treatment of... non-cismen
LOVE☆STRUCK
in that it benefits literally no one
𝖒𝖚𝖗𝖉𝖊𝖗 𝖔𝖋 𝖖𝖗𝖔𝖜𝖘
i watched a video of the shadow reveals in p4 once and the stuff with naoto and kanji was so bad
𝖒𝖚𝖗𝖉𝖊𝖗 𝖔𝖋 𝖖𝖗𝖔𝖜𝖘
naoto’s dungeon thing in particular being like an operation theater is so. much.
corpse bride
like, the thing with Naoto and her dungeon... I don't think it's a disservice to say that the thought that "well, if I had been born male, my life would be so much easier, right?" didn't cross her mind
LOVE☆STRUCK
that's not a trans-exclusive thought, too
corpse bride
people can go through questioning phases throughout their life, but the narrative makes it pretty clear after you finish her dungeon that she's not trans
LOVE☆STRUCK
like plenty of perfectly-cis women-- yeah
LOVE☆STRUCK
yEAH..
time stranger
????final) different portrayals of naoto in fan content are permissible because characters are fake and "writing it to better suit your own tastes/needs, whatever informs those tastes" is a valid type of fan content but holy shit persona does not deserve the credit and i would never rec p4 to someone for trans content holy moly
LOVE☆STRUCK
A LOT OF WOMEN who are just fine being women have acknowledged that being born male would have made their lives easier
LOVE☆STRUCK
and it's true
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because patriarchy
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YEAH EXACTLY
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LIKE do all the headcanons you want. Really!
LOVE☆STRUCK
but stop giving canons credit for the narrative work YOU did after the fact
cataro yumenya
i get a migraine just thinking about the phrase "p4 is good trans rep"
corpse bride
the Shadows aren't necessarily one's "true" thoughts, but the anxieties one holds back, which certainly includes internalized homophobia and transphobia, so I don't necessarily hate the way atlus treated Kanji and Naoto's dungeons BUT
LOVE☆STRUCK
HAHA
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yeah
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fuckin
corpse bride
i do hate how the rest of the narrative makes Kanji the butt of every homophobic joke afterward
LOVE☆STRUCK
atlus is SO bad at trans rep all around
corpse bride
and how you can only romance Naoto if you force her to present solely as a typical feminine girl
LOVE☆STRUCK
stares at the American localization of Catherine Fullbody having to pretty much rewrite rin's story (and doing it excellently, if I do say so myself)
corpse bride
like, I will give atlus points for broaching those kinda topics and putting them into mainstream conversation, but that's about it
cataro yumenya
for a game about accepting yourself and being true to yourself sure is weird that naoto's only option for romance is if she conforms to rigid gender norms
cataro yumenya
"sure is weird," i say, as if i don't know atlus sucks at this shit
corpse bride
they do need some more diverse writers on the team or some sensitivity readers or something if they want to do better wrt LGBT+ representation
cataro yumenya
i was joking that in p6 there would still be no fem protag or option to be gay but like..... it's depressing to think about how, no, it probably won't be a joke
LOVE☆STRUCK
honestly
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letting her be just a girl who enjoys dressing as a dude would have been fine
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pleas
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e
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just let
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butch women, regardless of sexuality, exist
LOVE☆STRUCK
i'm not even demanding they make her gay just fuckin let her be ok with not dressing like a woman
it would have been
fine
𝖊𝖎𝖊𝖓 𝖓𝖔 𝖔𝖜𝖆𝖗𝖎 ☾
Takes a drag of a fake cig
𝖊𝖎𝖊𝖓 𝖓𝖔 𝖔𝖜𝖆𝖗𝖎 ☾
Stares into the sun
𝖊𝖎𝖊𝖓 𝖓𝖔 𝖔𝖜𝖆𝖗𝖎 ☾
LOVE☆STRUCK
on a similar note, really tired of the idea that masculine women can Only be liked by other women & the accompanying connotation that that is somehow lesser
𝖊𝖎𝖊𝖓 𝖓𝖔 𝖔𝖜𝖆𝖗𝖎 ☾
I think what tires me out most is like.... aside from all the stuff already said wrt these canons, esp Persona, which I agree with 100%, I am so.... exhausted with English speaking and other western fans of Japanese media being such complete assholes to Japanese fans
𝖊𝖎𝖊𝖓 𝖓𝖔 𝖔𝖜𝖆𝖗𝖎 ☾
Who will always know more about this subject bc it’s their fucking media
𝖊𝖎𝖊𝖓 𝖓𝖔 𝖔𝖜𝖆𝖗𝖎 ☾
Like. No fucking wonder Japanese fans did not want anything to do with English fans for so many years, English fans treat them like dirt
LOVE☆STRUCK
STRONG AGREE
LOVE☆STRUCK
Like i couldnt bother reading the replies to this person's tweet bc a. It was making me sick with rage and b. I already Knew
𝖊𝖎𝖊𝖓 𝖓𝖔 𝖔𝖜𝖆𝖗𝖎 ☾
Bonus points that these fans think they are so woke and unproblematic and yet they consistently talk over the people who this media actually comes from and ignore their knowledge and experiences, like... you fucking hypocritical head ass mother fuckers
𝖊𝖎𝖊𝖓 𝖓𝖔 𝖔𝖜𝖆𝖗𝖎 ☾
Show your ethnocentric shitty ass some more why don’t you
LOVE☆STRUCK
and as Groove mentioned LITERALLY (verbally) ATTACKING TRANS PEOPLE FOR DISAGREEING
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as if we're somehow not actually trans if we disagree
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which is like. come on
LOVE☆STRUCK
even westerner trans people don't like what you're saying
𝖊𝖎𝖊𝖓 𝖓𝖔 𝖔𝖜𝖆𝖗𝖎 ☾
Americans treat Japanese people like shit already, like way to be transparent as you gorge yourself on their media while shitting on any that actually speak up about their experiences and your bad takes
𝖊𝖎𝖊𝖓 𝖓𝖔 𝖔𝖜𝖆𝖗𝖎 ☾
YEAH SERIOUSLY
LOVE☆STRUCK
it's not just offensive to Japanese people, it's offensive to insist the stories of GNC people are inherently trans
LOVE☆STRUCK
GNC =/= trans
𝖊𝖎𝖊𝖓 𝖓𝖔 𝖔𝖜𝖆𝖗𝖎 ☾
MAYBE IF MULTIPLE PEOPLE ARE TELLING YOU YOURE WRONG YOURE FUCKING WRONG
LOVE☆STRUCK
esp when lbr
𝖊𝖎𝖊𝖓 𝖓𝖔 𝖔𝖜𝖆𝖗𝖎 ☾
How hard is it to not be a dick and just fucking LISTEN
LOVE☆STRUCK
with Chihiro and Naoto it absolutely comes down to the fact they crossdress
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that's all it is
LOVE☆STRUCK
if they weren't crossdressers people wouldn't try to say they're trans
𝖊𝖎𝖊𝖓 𝖓𝖔 𝖔𝖜𝖆𝖗𝖎 ☾
Lmao yep
LOVE☆STRUCK
Kuranosuke is a crossdresser. he is not trans. he says as much
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there are people
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who live their ENTIRE LIVES as crossdressers
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and they are not fine
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...trans
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THEY'RE FINE, THEY'RE JUST NOT TRANS
LOVE☆STRUCK
LMFAO I MIXED UP MY LAST TWO SENTENCES
LOVE☆STRUCK
man all this ever does is make me want to write transboy-ok-with-dresses Chihiro BUT EVEN THAT IS STIL JUST AN AU, CONSIDERING HOW IT'S LEARNED THAT HE'S A BOY
𝖊𝖎𝖊𝖓 𝖓𝖔 𝖔𝖜𝖆𝖗𝖎 ☾
Honestly this is part of why when I work on stories with larger casts (which are always lgbt+ casts) I almost always end up including a crossdressing cis male who says plainly that they identify as male, along with all the other trans characters included
LOVE☆STRUCK
AGREE
𝖊𝖎𝖊𝖓 𝖓𝖔 𝖔𝖜𝖆𝖗𝖎 ☾
Bc just. My guys. We can let boys wear dresses too ffs
LOVE☆STRUCK
'd love for more crossdressing trans men to be on casts but the fact is any time you have a trans man wear a dress people insist he can't be a boy : )
LOVE☆STRUCK
people are allowed to crossdress a. without being nonbinary (though that is okay, too) and b. without being trans
𝖊𝖎𝖊𝖓 𝖓𝖔 𝖔𝖜𝖆𝖗𝖎 ☾
I’m just so tired of the gender binary and people who insist on holding it up even when they claim to be against it
LOVE☆STRUCK
the whole thing is that we WANT men to feel just as valid wearing dresses and makeup
LOVE☆STRUCK
not to insist they have to be women if they enjoy that
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and the same goes for gals
LOVE☆STRUCK
Toms are a VERY masculine subset of lesbians in China and they 100% do not identify as men
LOVE☆STRUCK
do they look like dudes? Sometimes they look iNDISTINGUISHABLE from dudes
but they like that look
and they like the fact that they are women
𝖊𝖎𝖊𝖓 𝖓𝖔 𝖔𝖜𝖆𝖗𝖎 ☾
You’d think it’d be the one thing people would learn from the rise of drag queens but nah I guess it only counts if you’re being performative and campy
LOVE☆STRUCK
it doesn't come from a place of transphobia, it is that the type of woman they like to be looks like that
LOVE☆STRUCK
and the Dees (hyperfemme lesbians) that usually accompany Toms are into toms.... BECAUSE THEY'RE WOMEN and ID as women no matter how masculine they seem
LOVE☆STRUCK
when we bring western ethnocentric ideas to the table we are limiting representation
not everything is created for the West
corpse bride
I'm very much here for straight cis GNC male rep because while we get SOME GNC female rep for girls via the tomboy stereotype, we very rarely get the same for boys
LOVE☆STRUCK
AGREE
corpse bride
and it's like... to insist that a straight male HAS to be gay or trans or whatever because he shows interest in anything even remotely feminine is pretty toxic imo?
LOVE☆STRUCK
let men wear dresses!!!!
LOVE☆STRUCK
or even just
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like nail polish and shit
LOVE☆STRUCK
let Kanji be ok with his girly hobbies without it being a fucking joke
corpse bride
I always thought it was unfair that girls get a free pass to explore masculine presentations, but boys aren't really allowed that space to explore feminine presentation
corpse bride
and I'm sure that the resentment that builds up from that kinda bullying just reinforces toxic masculine behavior, which was demonstrated quite well in Kanji's arc, I think?
𝖊𝖎𝖊𝖓 𝖓𝖔 𝖔𝖜𝖆𝖗𝖎 ☾
Kanji is so good
corpse bride
P4 basically was basically a critique on the patriarchy extending all the way back to the mythology of Izanami and Izanagi, and while some parts of it were handled in a clunky manner, I am glad that the media exists
LOVE☆STRUCK
YEAH... It's like they tried they just
Missed
𝖊𝖎𝖊𝖓 𝖓𝖔 𝖔𝖜𝖆𝖗𝖎 ☾
It’s why i feel so bummed out about the current state of atlus bc honestly with all its missteps, considering when it came out, p4 had a lot of really good stuff in it that was important to me, it’s a shame atlus never took that and got.... better than it
𝖊𝖎𝖊𝖓 𝖓𝖔 𝖔𝖜𝖆𝖗𝖎 ☾
But I digress
LOVE☆STRUCK
Y e a h....
corpse bride
and if y'all know about the raw deal Izanami got stuck with, you'd sympathize with her feelings in the narrative
unbound
atlus: kind of like jk Rowling in more ways than we’d like
𝖊𝖎𝖊𝖓 𝖓𝖔 𝖔𝖜𝖆𝖗𝖎 ☾
Ran why would you say something so cursed yet true
unbound
Because someone has to speak the truth no matter how cursed it is
LOVE☆STRUCK
Cmvmgk AWFUL BUT TRUE
corpse bride
also, idk if this is true, but I heard the scenario writers for the social links was a different set from the main scenario, which might explain some of the dissonance between those two areas in the narrative?
corpse bride
regardless, it's 2020 and atlus needs to do better
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