[Shadowbringers] How can that dude snap so clearly with gloves on? [Spoiler Theorycrafting]
Angry Popoto
[Shadowbringers] How can that dude snap so clearly with gloves on? [Spoiler Theorycrafting]
[Shadowbringers] How can that dude snap so clearly with gloves on? [Spoiler Theorycrafting]
Angry Popoto
I'm at level 77 stuff again, and paying more attention to bits and pieces the second time around
Angry Popoto
(Itoto is almost always my second character through game/expansions/patches, and so I imagine that her personal expression of the Echo tends rather strongly toward flashes of prescience)
Larboard
style
Angry Popoto
Emet-Selch "borrows" the Occular to again explain the history of Zodiark and Hydaelyn, specifically the Sundering and enervation of each fragment, how the different fragments are so much "lesser" than the originals
Angry Popoto
Larboard
: I suppose so. >.> He probably made them specifically so that he could still snap dramatically.
Angry Popoto
Anyway, one thing that struck me is that he said Hydaelyn was created/summoned because Zodiark's strength was feared by a faction of the original world, to be a fetter on him.
✨NightLuna✨
hahaha 
with style. +1
with style. +1
Angry Popoto
And as we find out later, part of this was due to the Amaurotines' plan, first to sacrifice half of their number to summon/create Zodiark in the first place, and then another half sacrificing themselves to bring back life into the world. Then the remainder decided that they'd let the new life quicken and strengthen, then kill half of them off
Angry Popoto
in order to bring back those who had sacrificed themselves
Angry Popoto
but a lot of this just has me wondering who, exactly, summoned Hydaelyn - and why.
Angry Popoto
it's hinted that the WoL was the Fourteenth, the one who left the Convocation just before the Calamity/End Days (I don't remember exactly what it was called off the top of my head)
Angry Popoto
but Hydaelyn was summoned after that whole thing was stabilized by Zodiark coming into being
Angry Popoto
was Hydaelyn summoned to keep the Convocation from going through with their plan to murder/sacrifice much of the new population of their star?
Angry Popoto
was it the Fourteenth/the WoL's original who summoned her, and if so, how?
Angry Popoto
because Hydaelyn was strong enough to strike down Zodiark, who had been powered by the supposedly willing sacrifice of half of the population of Amaurot, which means that it had to have taken at least as powerful an offering to bring her into existence
Larboard
I think it was further willing sacrifice to summon Hydaelyn
Larboard
including by the 14th
Angry Popoto
a lot of this comes down to, "I can't wait to see what's revealed in the next patches," because even if Emet-Selch, the Drama King, never actually lied to us, he's still an unreliable narrator, and can only tell the story the way that he perceived it - and he's not required to tell all of the truth
Angry Popoto
/nodnods
Angry Popoto
That's about what I figured, but there was still only a quarter of the population of Amaurot left after everything
Larboard
question is if other Echo blessed are likewise the self sacrificed
Larboard
as for the power levels
Angry Popoto
of course, there were other cities, so it's possible that the Fourteenth and the others went to those others for help
Angry Popoto
ooh, interesting possibility
Larboard
it feels like Zodiark is a "And you will sacrifice yourselves for us"
Larboard
while Hydaelyn is "And we will sacrifice ourselves for all of this."
Larboard
the emotional aspect is different
Larboard
Hydaelyn's was undoubtedly more willing across the board
Angry Popoto
I'm not sure that those who died for Zodiark were quite so unwilling, though - at least, not according to what Emet says. one of his biggest accusations of the WoL and party is, "If your people were faced with a Calamity like this, how many of your people would willingly step up to sacrifice themselves that others could live?"
Larboard
/nodnods
Angry Popoto
with the implications that the original peoples were so much more united and willing to make the sacrifice for each other, as opposed to the weak, fragmented reflections that exist now
Larboard
right
Larboard
(I'd need to go back and reread all of this)
Angry Popoto
(that's why I'm theorycrafting this as I go through the story again)
N ᴇ ᴛ ʜ ◈◇◇
General consensus is that the 14th brought together a small group of dissenters and they sacrificed their lives to summon Hydaelyn. she didn't take the amount of sacrifices of Zodiark because her purpose was more refined
N ᴇ ᴛ ʜ ◈◇◇
like you don't need a huge sword when a surgeon's scapel would suffice/be better
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(also Hythlodaeus confirmed that the original sacrifices were willing! though again, that's also from Hades' subconscious so can't exactly trust Hyth wholly)
Angry Popoto
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: Good point! Her purpose was just to fetter Zodiark, not to stabilize an entire star.
N ᴇ ᴛ ʜ ◈◇◇
yep, power-wise she's weaker, but more refined
Angry Popoto
Of course, that also brings to my mind the simple question of what the hell was causing the destabilization of the creation magics in the first place, as even the Amaurotines couldn't figured it out...
N ᴇ ᴛ ʜ ◈◇◇
my personal theory is not that she was made simply to shackle Zodiark, but to safeguard future life from him
Angry Popoto
Hmmm, I could see that.
N ᴇ ᴛ ʜ ◈◇◇
and yeah, it was a sound from within the earth (VIII fans are claiming Lunar Cry!) and idk like
N ᴇ ᴛ ʜ ◈◇◇
I have the theory that Omega's creators have something to do with the Sound
Angry Popoto
And like
Larboard
said, it kinda implies that those who summoned Hydaelyn in the first place are those whose fragments now possess the Echo
Angry Popoto
I also wonder about Midgardsormr, since he and Omega are intertwined - did they arrive specifically at the Source, or were they from before the Sundering?
N ᴇ ᴛ ʜ ◈◇◇
you read the latest Tales, right?
N ᴇ ᴛ ʜ ◈◇◇
(and Midgardsormr arrived and formed a covenant with Hydaelyn, so he was post-Sundering, but from a different world, so dragons are technically unsundered)
Angry Popoto
I have read it, yep
N ᴇ ᴛ ʜ ◈◇◇
Nael and I have the current theory that the Echo is that specialized Sight/Gift that Hades and Hythlodaeus had. the apparent variants in strength and abilities (from the little we know) might match up pretty well with the Echo
N ᴇ ᴛ ʜ ◈◇◇
so those with the Echo were Amaurotine souls with that particular Gift, to varying degrees of strength
Angry Popoto
Hmmm, possibly?
Angry Popoto
It's usually associated with Hydaelyn's Blessing, though, as those with even a touch of the Echo are also immune to tempering by another Primal (due to already being "tempered" themselves thanks to the connection to Hydaelyn)
N ᴇ ᴛ ʜ ◈◇◇
Hydaelyn's Blessing and the Echo are not the same thing at all
N ᴇ ᴛ ʜ ◈◇◇
the people who have the Echo aren't Blessed by her
N ᴇ ᴛ ʜ ◈◇◇
there's a correlation between Hydaelyn and the Echo, but it's definitely not confirmed that Hydaelyn blessed people with it
N ᴇ ᴛ ʜ ◈◇◇
I'm actually of the mindset that the Echo was something innate that a person had that could be activated. like Hydaelyn is very very weak, it would take a lot less energy to just reach out and give enough energy to activate the Echo than it would be to find someone else, if that makes sense
Angry Popoto
Hm. I thought that the Echo specifically was something connected to Hydaelyn.
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nopes
N ᴇ ᴛ ʜ ◈◇◇
*nope
N ᴇ ᴛ ʜ ◈◇◇
because the Ascians have the exact same thing
N ᴇ ᴛ ʜ ◈◇◇
and it's called the Gift
Angry Popoto
Hmmm
N ᴇ ᴛ ʜ ◈◇◇
they call it something different but it is exactly the same
N ᴇ ᴛ ʜ ◈◇◇
Elidibus, when fighting us in 4.5 as Zenos, commented in shock about how much more adept we are with our Gift already
Angry Popoto
definitely gonna check that out again! =D
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I know he mentioned 'your Mother' but I'm pretty sure he mentioned Hydaelyn and the Gift separately
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I know he very specifically said the Gift
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also Lahabrea, iirc, mentioned it way early on as well
N ᴇ ᴛ ʜ ◈◇◇
like in the Tam-Tara cutscene, possibly? 
Angry Popoto
I'm not sure on that one, but it's possible?
N ᴇ ᴛ ʜ ◈◇◇
I know in one of the early cutscenes an Ascian speaks in 'Ascian' language and we understand and he's like 'oh you understand' but idr if that was a 1.0 thing or not
N ᴇ ᴛ ʜ ◈◇◇
Tam Tara did have a cutscene with an Ascian though, I'm pretty damn sure
Angry Popoto
I think that they figured out that we understand fairly early on in 2.0 at least, because I remember some of them going, "Yeah, the people around here have absolutely no idea what I'm saying, so they think that you're just crazy."